Live data from Hacker News

Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

bbc.com

91–100 of 146 posts

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#91
post #56
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, there is animal rights, and animal welfare. I think one of the main problems for orcas is size. Creating an appropriately sized habitat for them would be a gargantuan endeavor, however, if we could, i think a lot of us would be less vehemently opposed to keeping them in captivity. For pigs, this is entirely plausible. While i'm also very opposed to our current factory farming practices, since i'm fairly nihilisti…

It sounds like you support animal welfare, but not animal rights. I would expect someone who supports animal rights to not be OK with captivity for human gain.

This is why i pointed out that i was generally a nihilist on the subject. If we lived in a world in which the possibility that a ban on captivity for human gain could possibly exist, then it would be worth having that discussion. The fact is that we don't, and we very very probably won't within our lifetimes or our grandchildren's lifetime for that matter. To discuss the subject on those grounds seems counterproductive to me.

I try to take a more game-theoretic approach. Support those that are doing more to change the culture of how we treat animals to minimize the harm that exists and will persist. This may even arguably go as far is purchasing potentially objectionable animal products from those that are trying to change the social norms of farming.

The animal rights argument is perfectly good to have in the halls of academia, but in the world we live in, those of us who are good consequentialists may vastly differ in our approaches to how we should respond to the marketplace we live in to most effectively reduce the suffering that persists. It's also arguable that a diversity of approaches will be more effective due to the vast open-ended questions of how approaches will be accepted by the greater population. I for one think that convincing people that we should raise our "bacon" humanely will do vastly more for the reduction of suffering in the world than would telling people we should ban it because it's clearly immoral to consume.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#92

I agree that killer whale's shouldn't be kept in captivity, but than on the other hand, I also love me some bacon. Pigs are also sentient creatures with high intelligence yet we see them as a food source, and thus don't really care about their conditions in captivity.

It's different for animals that naturally migrate hundreds of thousands of miles a year and forcing them to live in a few thousand cubic meters of water.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#93

> In line with this, several decades of observation show that orcas are not naturally violent towards humans. There are no recorded cases of a wild orca killing a human. In a recent BBC Attenborough documentary (I think Frozen Planet) there was a sequence where they showed teams of killer whales swiftly swimming just under the surface to create a wave in an attempt to knock a seal off an ice flow so that they could e…

I apologize in advance for this sounding morbid but I'd allege that the reason there are no recorded cases could be that there are no remains and thus a person that may have been killed by an Orca could still be a missing person case without evidence to support any particular theory.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#94
Is there some animal which should be kept in captivity? For instance, I don't understand how it's accepted to cage birds and keep them from flying. It makes no sense to me. Please explain, as I'm sure there's a valid reason, but if you try to look it up you end up on animal rights activist sites that don't explain much.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#95

My wife keeps hitting me when I (intentionally, to mess with her) call these creatures 'killer whales'. The name doesn't help, really. The subtitle is 'Keeping orcas in aquariums deprives them of crucial aspects of their lives, and in some cases it can even prove dangerous to humans'. BBC seems to know what these creatures are called, but prefers to use 'killer whales' in the title. Why? That's messed up, both in gen…

You're not wrong. They are killer whales. It's just that they don't (99.9999999999%) kill humans in the wild. They kill sharks and seals all the time which qualifies them as a killer whale.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#96
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to know! Now which appendage should I offer for the tasting menu....

The smallest finger - hopefully its the one in your foot ;) But to be serious, I wonder if cutting yourself would be enough for them to taste you and go away or if it would have opposite effect.

If you're ever in a situation where you get a choice of which finger to lose don't chose your little finger. You want to keep your index (or first) finger, and your little (or forth) finger, and you probably want to keep your ring (or third) finger.

A bunch of stuff becomes much harder if you don't have a little finger.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#97
post #86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel if the moment you were born someone else had already planned the day of your execution?

This is such a sophomoric approach to ethics it hardly deserves a response. Animals are not humans. They are hardly likely to have the same capacity to suffer. Anthropomorphizing them is not a credible way to talk about the issue. At best they ought to be compared to a severely mentally disabled human. Still deserving of dignity, but hardly treated as equal.

Rather than conjecture, why not educate yourself with free films such as Earthlings (available on YouTube) to learn what the experience of others really is like?

Edit: your assumption that animals' capacity to suffer and experience fear, pain and misery is dissimilar to ours is rooted in ignorance. If it's academic proof you're desperately after, a great jumping off point is by reading The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, signed by a prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists and computational neuroscientists gathered at The University of Cambridge in 2012.

http://www.earthintransition.org/2012/07/scientists-declare-...

http://www.livescience.com/39481-time-to-declare-animal-sent...

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#98
post #73

No one is "meant" to be tortured and abused. I find you reply to be morally abhorrent and absolutely disgusting. Right now, at this very moment, on American highways, there are no less than 5,000 concentration camp trucks. Trucks that we’ve constructed. Inside these trucks there are living, terrified, innocent beings (such as) cows, pigs and chickens. These trucks are being driven to concentration camp slaughterhouse…

I find your reference to "concentration camps" in relation to livestock finishing feedlots and slaughterhouses to be tremendously inappropriate. Please find another way to shock and horrify readers into treating food animals more humanely. It might not have been your intent, but you are reducing the victims of actual concentration camps to the status of food animals.

"you are reducing the victims of actual concentration camps to the status of food animals."

to be fair, it was the nazis that did that.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#99
post #73

No one is "meant" to be tortured and abused. I find you reply to be morally abhorrent and absolutely disgusting. Right now, at this very moment, on American highways, there are no less than 5,000 concentration camp trucks. Trucks that we’ve constructed. Inside these trucks there are living, terrified, innocent beings (such as) cows, pigs and chickens. These trucks are being driven to concentration camp slaughterhouse…

I find your reference to "concentration camps" in relation to livestock finishing feedlots and slaughterhouses to be tremendously inappropriate. Please find another way to shock and horrify readers into treating food animals more humanely. It might not have been your intent, but you are reducing the victims of actual concentration camps to the status of food animals.

I'm hardly the first to draw a comparison between the treatment of animals and the Holocaust [1]. Every year, 150 billion animals are born and slaughtered [2]. I think to compare their plight, which was happening long before the Jewish Holocaust and continues to this day, is offensive and shows a great lack of empathy, or understanding of their situation and present experience.

Just like us, non-human animals are not machines, they are not for the satisfaction of our needs in this world, and they do not belong to us. I therefore advocate a lifestyle that is called ethical veganism [3][4]. It goes well beyond the diet and includes all aspects of life and human and animal interaction.

Only when we look at other animals as individuals, with dignity and respect, can we really know who they are. As long as you cling to euphemisms and degrade sentient creatures to being mere commodities for your personal enjoyment, you will remain ignorant of their individuality, their ability to suffer and their desire to live and be free.

1. http://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Treblinka-Treatment-Animals-Ho...

2. http://www.adaptt.org/killcounter.html

3. http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

4. http://johnnytisdale.com/veganism-is-a-scientific-imperative...

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#100
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One explanation could be that Orcas and Humans simply don't come in contact that often. Orcas are common where I live in British Columbia, but you really don't have that many swimmers around in contrast to tropical areas. Additionally, the local resident orcas eat salmon and I don't think they'd consider humans to be a potential food source. Transient orcas eat seals, and I could imagine them confusing a human with a…

That's certainly a factor. However, orca are not limited to cold climates, even if they are found more there. Their natural range includes all oceans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Range_and_habitat and they can encounter humans not just when the humans are swimming - which is rare in cold climates - but also when they are fishing. Furthermore, there are also practically no cases of other dolphins than o…

An additional reason could be how they find they prey.

I’ve read that most of the time shark attacks are somewhat accidental with the shark biting to find out what something is, but not continuing the attack.

It could be that the echolocation abilities of toothed whales provides them with a superior ability to discern a human from their typical favoured prey and they don't make mistakes.

It would be ambitious for a dolphin to kill a large animal like a human and that’s since that’s not their typical hunting behaviour, I can understand why dolphin attacks are not common.

On other hand an transient orca would often eat human sized animals. Even if I’m right that echolocation would allow an orca to discern between a seal and a human, why wouldn’t they give the human a bite to see if they tasted any good? It is pretty weird mystery that there have been no recorded attacks on humans.

Post reply on HN