The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#181

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

woodandsteel wrote: post #170

TomMckenny wrote: post #122

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

>Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size As battery prices continue to fall, electrics will get cheaper than ice's, so there will be less revenue. Beyond that, fsd means many people who now own a car will use robotaxis instead, which means many fewer autos needed. In addition Tesla is working on making its cars last a million miles. So t…

Don't believe the hype.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#182

Post by prepend » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

bradknowles wrote: post #64

prepend wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way we take care of people is by providing many diverse training paths and transparency. Not just college age programs but lifelong learning where it’s possible to learn to code or weld or teach or whatever. Our libraries and community colleges should include more low cost certification and structured learning programs where people can explore interests. I think this is very different from the high cost 4…

If people were willing to retrain, your concept might work. But in all the cases I’ve seen so far, most of these people built their whole identities around being a coal miner or an automobile assembly line person. That’s the only thing they know how to do, and the only thing they are willing to do. Nothing less than the exact same thing will suffice. In the case of widespread intransigence, I don’t see how you can so…

If people aren’t able to change and retrain, I’m not sure what will help them. I’m sure some people are locked in. I’m from a part of the country where people are pretty transient and it’s common to meet screeners who started at 50 or even people at 60 who started doing medical transcription or telework bank support and stuff. I meet tons of people who rebooted and I’ve been meeting them for 50 years or so. And it’s not like I seek them out.

This might also be an example where we have to teach and support and encourage resiliency early in life. I’m sure there are some people who lock their life around their job, but that’s not healthy. Especially if it’s literally a shitty and unhealthy job like coal mining.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#183

Post by steelframe » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

pro8ndi wrote: post #161

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

The extreme is an entire country unprepared to deal with the end of the emotional meme they’ve spent their lives soaking up. It’s pretty simple: Ownership is unwilling to spend on the mess their wealth relies on. The masses are too incapable of adaptation on their own, having been trained to fit radiators and hub caps, not participate in the political process. Adam Smith’s concern over extreme division of labor makin…

> A new New Deal is in order.

Maaayyyyybe, but if it is, it won't become obvious until we've gone through a period of economic devastation similar to that of the Great Depression.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#184

Post by prepend » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #27

prepend wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way we take care of people is by providing many diverse training paths and transparency. Not just college age programs but lifelong learning where it’s possible to learn to code or weld or teach or whatever. Our libraries and community colleges should include more low cost certification and structured learning programs where people can explore interests. I think this is very different from the high cost 4…

What skills are people going to learn in a week that employers aren't already willing to provide training for? Are things so broken on the employer side that they won't take a 1 week risk on a new hire?

I don’t think that a single week of training will prepare someone for a new job. I was thinking that it would be useful to check interest before spending lots of time in a longer program.

That being said it’s weird how many companies don’t pay for training, even simple stuff like LinkedIn Education and Coursera. So it would be nice to have more of these, especially curated, by a more independent source like a library or community college so it wasn’t tied to jobs.

There are also some great week or less trainings that can help improve performance. It’s surprising how many people can’t use Microsoft Office. I recently got to help people use Word and OneDrive and it was neat seeing how much work sucked before they figured out how to save files and edit files. This is someone that is simple to digital natives but a little bit of training can help extend careers.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#185

Post by dehrmann » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

With how many plans GM has been closing, the UAW picked a really awkward time to strike.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#186

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #80

Thriptic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

> People don't want "hand outs" or "charity", they want to do something to generate value Agreed that it will be a cultural shift: there is a divide between meaning and economics. People need meaning in life, but meaningful work and economic value aren't always the same. Raising children or providing caregiving to the elderly can be very meaningful and happens to pay poorly. Building community is incredibly meaningfu…

Without all the hoops to jump through and prove disability or attend useless classes, people would largely find productive things to do. Sure it might disrupt other businesses, but if I had all the free time in the world and enough money, I'd find something to do. Maybe I'd start my own small farm, or sell prepared meals, or sharpen knives professionally, or run a political campaign, or volunteer for my favorite charity. You know, the kinds of stuff well off rich kids do.

Why is everyone so convinced people need to be told what to do to stay busy and engaged in the world?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#187

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

pseudoramble wrote: post #167

jdnenej wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is unlimited meaningful work available that doesn't generate much real profit. You can easily perform music on the street which others enjoy but you won't make a lot of money. You can easily learn crafts to create things for your friends and family that they will appreciate but not pay for. You can easily get in to competitive sport without having to be part of the very top % who get paid for it. We just need t…

I agree with you. I also feel the same way about people studying a "worthless" degree at a university. I think it should be much more heavily encouraged to let us develop deeper thinkers, artists, and others. We should learn to celebrate that not everything needs to be economically/financially driven. > We just need to realise that life happyness and meaningful work doesn't mean generating profits for some ceo. I bel…

People realize it, just not he old ones with the money.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#188

Post by avar » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #36

avar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement Is it? I've watched a lot of modern car assembly line videos and it doesn't seem to be hard or backbreaking at all. Boring and tedious? Sure, here's one for GM's best selling vehicle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nr3I-Fddv8 At no point do you see anyone lift something heavy without the assistance of overhead…

Yes, it is hard work. That's a promotional video showing you what the most automated parts look like when automation goes perfectly. Not everything is so automated, and everything doesn't always go perfectly.

I'm not saying that backbreaking work doesn't exist within automotive manufacturing, but that categorizing the entire workforce as engaging in such work is clearly a gross exaggeration the way modern manufacturing is done.

Sure, backbreaking work exists within the industry, but you can also tell from how some people are dressed (just street clothes with no safety gear) and by how fast the line moves that there's a lot of jobs that are no more physically demanding than some office work or fast food work.

E.g. it's someone's job to sit in a new car and make sure all the buttons and interface elements work, or to visually inspect the paint job and flag blemishes for fixing further down the line etc.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#189

Post by Balgair » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

rplst8 wrote: post #171

Judgmentality wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. Right now the margins on gasoline vehicles are much better than electric vehicles, partially due to the technology being relatively immature. The internal combustion engine has more than 100 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D behind its infrastr…

There might be other revenue streams like battery recycling. Might not replace ICE maintenance jobs completely, but will hopefully provide some cover.

When/if the ECs get to be a lot cheaper than the ICEs, I think you'll see a 'fast fashion' in cars. Like with smart-phones, the accessorization will take off too; pop-sockets, cases, backgrounds, etc. Sure, it'll be less money overall, but it'll be good too.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#190

Post by MuffinFlavored » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

thephyber wrote: post #92

chillacy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that until I tried teaching people programming a few times, it's hard work, and a lot of people don't find it enjoyable. Additionally I heard people who do well in code school have prior programming experience as well, so it becomes more about selection and refining skills than actually making new programmers.

I don't think the "hard work" excuse works when you are talking about people who used to work in coal mines and have a family to support. I think it's more likely that the basic math (algebra, geometry, etc) is missing when you look at men who started working in the mines before they finish high school. Without the math foundation, it's not "hard work", but a weak foundation which just causes frustration. That, and a…

> I think it's more likely that the basic math (algebra, geometry, etc)

I am a senior full stack developer and typically in the top 10% of the developers in my org wherever I've gone past 5 years.

I do 0 algebra or geometry. I call APIs, I put stuff in databases. I store state.

I really don't think it's "math"y at all. I transform data, I use libraries. I can't think of any algebraic examples of anything I've done in the past 5 years, let alone geometry.