The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#161

Post by pro8ndi » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

The extreme is an entire country unprepared to deal with the end of the emotional meme they’ve spent their lives soaking up.

It’s pretty simple:

Ownership is unwilling to spend on the mess their wealth relies on.

The masses are too incapable of adaptation on their own, having been trained to fit radiators and hub caps, not participate in the political process.

Adam Smith’s concern over extreme division of labor making the masses emotionally ignorant & complacent animals came true.

There are few options. The country isn’t going to handle tens of thousands of laborers with 40+ years of life left in them mulling about.

A new New Deal is in order. Social welfare work is about the only job left for the masses once automation is doing enough.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#162

Post by war1025 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #106

e12e wrote: post #7

Is it? I found this linked from uaw.org: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-why-i-strike-201...

>We made sacrifices, froze our pensions, halved our pay and gave up benefits to save GM, the automotive industry, and the U.S. economy. These people think they saved the U.S economy? What are they smoking. They still us the government 11.3 billion dollars from the government bailing them out.[1] >GM also chose to rip away our health care coverage in the dead of night, effective immediately and without warning. This i…

> These people think they saved the U.S economy? What are they smoking

That's like saying the poor bastard that ended up in Normandy during WWII didn't help win the war.

Obviously they didn't do it single-handedly, but they did make sacrifices that kept the automakers from going completely under. The auto industry might not be very important to people on the coasts, but it's a big deal in Michigan.

The people made real concessions and now that GM is posting record profits, they don't see why they should be conceding further. And they have a union behind them. So they are raising a fuss. Because they can.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#163

Post by dmix » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #132

noobermin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

Why can't a software company just make other software? Why did WordPerfect go out of business when they could have just made games, and OS, or a web browser?

None of those people are demanding an industry guarantee their jobs. This is a valid question when the burden is being placed on the car companies to give them work, it’s fair to ask why they can’t find work regardless if they are skilled workers.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#164

Post by sprash » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

wcoenen wrote: post #120

sprash wrote: post #22

Can somebody explain to me why we need to switch to electric cars when we have Fischer-Tropsch to produce fuel literally out of thin air? We could keep all the existing infrastructure while having zero CO2 impact. I think digging up loads of Lithium and Cobalt and plastering the country with charging stations is neither more sustainable nor less environmentally harmful.

The Fischer-Tropsch process is about 50% efficient. (This is starting from biomass, it will be worse starting with air and extracting CO2, which is hard because less than 0.05% of air is CO2) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001623611... Then the fuel is burned. Internal combustion engines are typically 20% efficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine?wpr... So burning synthet…

Most electricity is produced by burning coal heating up water and sending it through a turbine. The efficiency is limited by the maximum the carnot cycle can give you. In general less than 60%. Still not as bad as 10%, sure. But if you get your energy with solar cells we could get into regions where the efficiencies are comparable. All Fisher-Tropsch needs is heat and using solar you have plenty of that.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#165

Post by myself248 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #132

noobermin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

Why can't a software company just make other software? Why did WordPerfect go out of business when they could have just made games, and OS, or a web browser?

I suspect many of WordPerfect's employees did, in fact, go on to work as programmers writing other software.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#166

Post by refurb » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

The UAW has had job guarantees and “job banks” as a part of their contract negotiations for decades, it’s not new at all.

Not disagreeing that electric cars concern them, but asking for job guarantees is not proof of it.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#167

Post by pseudoramble » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

jdnenej wrote: post #150

Thriptic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

There is unlimited meaningful work available that doesn't generate much real profit. You can easily perform music on the street which others enjoy but you won't make a lot of money. You can easily learn crafts to create things for your friends and family that they will appreciate but not pay for. You can easily get in to competitive sport without having to be part of the very top % who get paid for it. We just need t…

I agree with you. I also feel the same way about people studying a "worthless" degree at a university. I think it should be much more heavily encouraged to let us develop deeper thinkers, artists, and others. We should learn to celebrate that not everything needs to be economically/financially driven.

> We just need to realise that life happyness and meaningful work doesn't mean generating profits for some ceo.

I believe that's GP's point in a nutshell. The thing is for the USA "just need to realize" is a major cultural shift. Not to say it's insurmountable by any means, but making people just realize something is very tricky IMO.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#168

Post by crankylinuxuser » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #46

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

> The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. Can somebody go into depth on this? Everyday I interact with people who have jobs that suck way more than coding and pay way less. Why wouldn't people want to work 40 hours remotely with full benefits making decent wages?

Spoken like a "Them", and not a "us".

I've been on both coasts. I've been in big cities. The prosperity is there. The hope is there. The schooling and resources are there.

My family came from the Appalachians. Hill country. they live off the land, cause the only money is from tourists. They used to work in the mines, but 'them environmentalists' ruined their livelihood and ended their bodily suffering so their kids could do better. But in doing so, the coastal elites destined those cities, those families to poverty.

But this poverty is working in restaurants, working menial service jobs that pay $8/hr, no benefits, and no vacation. And remember that in the USA, your property tax is linked to school funds. Sure the feds pitch in a bit, but not that much.

So you get: bad education, bad jobs, no upward mobility, low/no healthcare. You get poverty equal to what we'd call 'Third World'.

So when I see a bunch of coastal elites say blasely, "Why cant the blue collar workers just learn programming and be rich?" It's about as tone deaf as Marie Antionette saying 'Why can't they just eat cake?'

They don't have the prior education to learn programming. They don't have the free time due to working 50-60 hour weeks. Or they don't have the ability to afford computers or the know-how to use free and open source software effectively to learn.

We need socialism, especially when policies end up destroying counties, towns, and cities founded in old paradigms we now kill for being bad. We can end dirty jobs - but we should never end the people. But that's what we're doing.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#169

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #146

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

It's hard to do when the people who would be recipients of such help are philosophically opposed to the virtue of such help. "Learn 2 code" was attempted because offering food stamps and Section 8 housing in coal country gets you immediately shut down. Those people, generally, don't want to perceive themselves as a burden on society.

The irony, of course, is that keeping the coal business going is a much higher burden on society in the long run.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#170

Post by woodandsteel » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

TomMckenny wrote: post #122

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

>Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size

As battery prices continue to fall, electrics will get cheaper than ice's, so there will be less revenue. Beyond that, fsd means many people who now own a car will use robotaxis instead, which means many fewer autos needed. In addition Tesla is working on making its cars last a million miles. So total auto industry revenue is due to go way down.