The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#171

Post by rplst8 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #138

TomMckenny wrote: post #122

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

> No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. Right now the margins on gasoline vehicles are much better than electric vehicles, partially due to the technology being relatively immature. The internal combustion engine has more than 100 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D behind its infrastr…

There might be other revenue streams like battery recycling. Might not replace ICE maintenance jobs completely, but will hopefully provide some cover.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#172

Post by dtornabene » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

dugditches wrote: post #61

Aloha wrote: post #9

I'm skeptical that the labor differential is as big as this article implies frankly. This strike is pretty straightforward in cause, GM wants to pay less, and wants their employees to cover more of their healthcare costs, the Union isnt okay with this. Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement - and while the transition to electric cars may slightly reduce…

>Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement Maybe 80 years ago. These fellas workin the forges and lifting those blocks certainly went home more sore than someone operating a pneumatic driver all day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bT6txm4RpA There is so many ergonomic and Health/Safety stuff now. Maybe it's hyperbole, but I wouldn't call auto assembly fa…

maybe you should do more than watch a youtube clip. Maybe talk to or g-d forbid, read the interviews with the striking workers who do this labor for hours on hours on their feet.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#173

Post by imtringued » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #159

sandworm101 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is a trade that was once taught by employers. They would teach the type/style/quality of welding they needed for the job.

What do you think they do with people that walk in the door with meaningless certifications?

They let them walk in the door in the first place?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#174

Post by woodandsteel » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

The article is right. There is a huge technological transition from ice's to electrics that is starting to happen. It is going to turn everything upside down, but the US, except for Tesla, is way behind. And the Trump administration is simply clueless.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#175

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

jdnenej wrote: post #150

Thriptic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

There is unlimited meaningful work available that doesn't generate much real profit. You can easily perform music on the street which others enjoy but you won't make a lot of money. You can easily learn crafts to create things for your friends and family that they will appreciate but not pay for. You can easily get in to competitive sport without having to be part of the very top % who get paid for it. We just need t…

[deleted]

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#176

Post by dtornabene » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

how, exactly, is this a part of "humanit's right to reasonable progress" whatever that is supposed to mean. And for the record, the article is wrong, the reason this is an issue, now, is that GM (and Ford, and Chevy) forced its workers to take paycuts and other slashed benefits as part of the bailout. GM then plowed the profits it has reaped after stabilization into stock buybacks, rather then actually do right by the people who build their product. A fact that goes unmentioned by this flight-of-fancy masquerading as "news".

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#177

Post by pgt » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” — Upton Sinclair.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#178

Post by kennywinker » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #117

kennywinker wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking jobs from folks who work in such an industry is a price worth paying, considering the alternative. The options are not fire them or keep screwing the planet. There's a third option: fire them but don't HANG THEM OUT TO DRY. Provide a social safety net - retraining, early retirement, health care, etc. This is the whole idea behind the "green new deal"... catch the people who would otherwise be ground up by th…

We could have a social safety net, but if the reporting and polls are to be believed, many of those in these collapsing industries have tended to vote for those trying really hard to dismantle what social safety nets we have. Let alone implement new ones. I imagine that is because candidates promised to save their jobs. But no one thought to ask, “what happens if they don’t?”

So do we get mad at the people who believed the lies and got swindled, or the people who told the lies and got rich?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#179

Post by philipkglass » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #160

philipkglass wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Without emissions pricing/regulations, synthetic liquid fuel costs more to produce than fossil-derived liquid fuels, so it is unprofitable. 2) Even assuming that there were emissions pricing/regulations that kept fossil fuels in the ground, synthetic liquid fuel is much more capital intensive and energy intensive to produce than the corresponding amount of electricity needed to move a car N kilometers. Synthetic f…

Concerning point 1: Of course it will always be cheaper to pump Oil directly out of the ground. Nobody claimed otherwise. Concerning point 2: A few billion investment seems to me far less than forcing everybody to switch to electric and building a vast network of charging stations and additional power plants to power those cars. (Which right now predominantly work with coal what everybody somehow seems to be ignoring…

It's not easier to generate hydrogen with thermally driven processes than with electricity. People have certainly proposed thermally driven methods that could use solar heat or the output of high temperature nuclear reactors. But none of them have reached pilot plant scale, and IMO they are going to be hard to make reliable/affordable because they combine high temperatures with chemically aggressive environments.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#180

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #138

TomMckenny wrote: post #122

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

> No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. Right now the margins on gasoline vehicles are much better than electric vehicles, partially due to the technology being relatively immature. The internal combustion engine has more than 100 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D behind its infrastr…

I don't think "the size of the pie" refers to how much is in the pie, but how it's divided.