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The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

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Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#131
post #22

Can somebody explain to me why we need to switch to electric cars when we have Fischer-Tropsch to produce fuel literally out of thin air? We could keep all the existing infrastructure while having zero CO2 impact. I think digging up loads of Lithium and Cobalt and plastering the country with charging stations is neither more sustainable nor less environmentally harmful.

1) Without emissions pricing/regulations, synthetic liquid fuel costs more to produce than fossil-derived liquid fuels, so it is unprofitable.

2) Even assuming that there were emissions pricing/regulations that kept fossil fuels in the ground, synthetic liquid fuel is much more capital intensive and energy intensive to produce than the corresponding amount of electricity needed to move a car N kilometers.

Synthetic fuels have a place in the future for applications that require high energy density like aircraft, rockets, and long distance shipping. But burning synfuels in legacy internal combustion engine vehicles is, generally speaking, not going to have a lower systemic cost than replacing ICE vehicles with battery electric vehicles and charging them with clean electricity.

A sketch of the problem: the Oryx Gas to Liquids plant is a modern Fischer-Tropsch plant that produces about 34,000 barrels (5.4 million liters) per day of liquid hydrocarbon fuels:

https://qp.com.qa/en/QPActivities/Pages/SubsidiariesAndJoint...

It cost about a billion dollars to build. A corresponding electrical synfuel plant would cost significantly more. You could eliminate the natural gas reformer and desulfurization processes, but would need to add:

1) CO2 separation unit sufficient to extract 14.2 million kilograms of CO2 from the atmosphere, daily (to supply the carbon found in 5.4 million liters of synthetic diesel fuel). Since the air contains ~400 ppm CO2, you need to process about 35.5 billion kilograms of air per day to get sufficient input CO2. Capital costs: wild-ass guesses, because nobody has built anything like this at scale. There's a recent claim that it direct air capture could cost "as low as" $94 per ton of CO2 [1]. That would come to 1.3 million dollars per day.

2) Enough hydrogen per day to turn all that CO2 into liquid fuel. Assuming an empirical "average diesel" formula of C12H24, you need 12 moles of CO2 and 48 moles of H2 to make a mole of diesel: 12 CO2 + 48 H2 -> C12H24 + 12 H2O. In terms of mass, that's .18 kilograms of hydrogen for every kilogram of CO2 -- 2.58 million kilograms of hydrogen per day.

3) A clean source of hydrogen. Electrolysis driven by clean electricity is the only process demonstrated at scale. Assuming it takes 46 kWh of electricity to produce a kilogram of hydrogen from water, and that plant capital costs are $975 per kg-H2/day [1], that's an electricity consumption of 118,860 megawatt hours per day plus an electrolyzer complex cost of $2.5 billion.

4) Electricity to drive the electrolyzers. The very cheapest electricity from hydro, nuclear, or renewable sources is somewhere between $20-$30 per megawatt hour. Such low priced electricity isn't available everywhere; in some countries, even large industrial buyers pay $40 and up. At the lower end that's 2.4 million dollars per day for electricity.

Adding it all up, the electricity and air capture costs alone come to about 69 cents per liter of diesel in costs. That is even though I have tried to make very charitable assumptions about how low the costs could be kept. The wholesale price of diesel in the US is currently about 51 cents per liter:

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=E...

I don't know how to properly amortize the extra capital investments to give a per-liter figure, but keep in mind that just adding the hydrogen electrolyzers triples the capital requirements for the whole complex. Note that I have budgeted nothing for labor either.

Finally, how much transportation do you get out? 5.4 million liters of diesel provides 85 million vehicle-kilometers in a 2019 Chevrolet Cruze:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=alts&p...

118,860,000 kWh of electricity provides 645 million vehicle-kilometers in a Tesla Model 3 (assuming 80% generation-to-battery efficiency):

https://pushevs.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-efficiency-impr...

The battery-electric propulsion solution delivers more than 7 times as much range per kilowatt hour of electricity spent, compared to clean synthetic fuel, and even more per dollar spent.

[1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/cost-plunges-capturi...

[2] https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/doe-technical-targets-... -- using the "2015 target" numbers for centrally located electrolysis.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#132

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

Why can't a software company just make other software? Why did WordPerfect go out of business when they could have just made games, and OS, or a web browser?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#133

It's not clear that electric cars will take less labor to build. Tesla's experience is that their cars take far more labor to build than Ford or Toyota or VW needs to build a car.[1] Even the battery pack operation is surprisingly labor-intensive. Automobile engine building, on the other hand, has been mostly automated since the 1950s. [11 https://www.autonews.com/article/20170611/OEM01/170619951/te...

I used to work at Ford Plant and provide data for something called the Harbour report which is about manufacturing productivity. Engine and transmission had about 10 hours of direct labor per car, and final assembly was roughly 18 hours. In the transition to electric cars, one could expect a 30% haircut across the board including engineering. Tesla probably isn’t that efficient because the automation isn’t yet reliable.

I’d have to ask someone, but I’d bet Tesla is running like 30% off standard. It takes 180 days for workers to work-harden, and years to get the automation optimized. Robots are cheap and easy to buy, but tooling at the end of the robot to do something like install a seat takes a long time to design and make.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#134

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

In practice, it won't be quite that simple. Car companies buy components from third parties, and if entire components are no longer needed, there's no "same number of workers with fewer hours" to be had---catalytic converter companies are just going to see business fall off.

But in the company core, final assembly? Yes.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#135

Do electric cars really have far fewer parts? Will this mean they'll become far more reliable and require less maintenance? I know expensive Teslas apparently are like this but what about the budget cars to be?

All electric cars are simple machines in regards to their engines, transmission, and battery. A Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt is also very simple.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're being clever or just defined socialism by accident.

Why is it that anytime a discussion about massive companies paying workers more comes up, that somehow somebody thinks this is socialism. Employees deserve to be fairly compensated.

He's saying that by getting stock grants the workers own the means to production (=socialism, sort of)

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#137
post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

> People don't want "hand outs" or "charity", they want to do something to generate value. While I agree that we will ultimately have to pursue some sort of UBI or payoff solution, implementing it requires a complete cultural shift in the way we think about work which will likely be a difficult uphill battle.

"Generating value" is such a capitalist fake idea though.

With UBI, people could potentially pursue whatever fulfills their soul, whether or not it creates economic value for others.

But the capitalist notion of "handouts" being personal failure and "generating value" as the meaning of life is so ingrained in American culture that I don't know how we'll ever move beyond it.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#138

No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size. That manufacturing becomes more efficient is no surprise: it always has. The question is whether they have fewer workers at the same compensation level, fewer workers at a higher compensation level or the same number of workers with fewer hours. Owners are push…

> No it's about money and who gets it. Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size.

Right now the margins on gasoline vehicles are much better than electric vehicles, partially due to the technology being relatively immature. The internal combustion engine has more than 100 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D behind its infrastructure.

Apart from that, most dealerships (which is not the same as the automobile manufacturer, but they are closely related) make most of their money from maintenance and servicing vehicles. One of the big selling points of electric vehicles is that they're simpler and cost less money to maintain.

A cursory analysis suggests your opening statement is actually wrong - there will be less revenue if there is widespread shift towards electric vehicles.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#139

Do electric cars really have far fewer parts? Will this mean they'll become far more reliable and require less maintenance? I know expensive Teslas apparently are like this but what about the budget cars to be?

Yes, and if anything the budget electric cars may be more reliable because of no gimmicky features like gull wing doors.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#140

This is probably tone deaf, but instead of giving the auto workers more money or open more factories, what if they gave them stock grants? If you gave them stock, they workers wouldn't want to open factories that would cause GM to lose money. It would keep the worker and the management incentives aligned.

Even given stock, the workers would prefer unprofitable factories because the stock would be a smaller portion of their compensation compared to lost wages.

The problem with stock compensation is that a worker’s incentives aren’t that of an owner. Let’s say that you give them stock, they hold the stock, and the company hits hard times. Now they’ve lost both their job and their savings. That’s bad. Let’s say that you give them 5% of their compensation in stock. They would keep wanting to make unprofitable factories because their stock compensation is minimal. Let’s say 80% of their compensation is stock. They’ll need to sell it to cover living expenses and so you’ve just given them cash with extra steps.

The ownership mentality only works if you’re dealing with rich people (like a CEO) that can defer realizing their compensation and where you’re willing to grossly overpay them.

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