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The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

marketwatch.com

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Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#91

Post by ianai »

_iyig wrote: post #30
yardie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word socialism has lost the sting. Considering one of the top presidential candidates has been running in the platform for decades. And the DSA has made large gains in liberal cities. Simply calling something socialism isn’t the scarlet letter it used to be.

I don't know why you've been downvoted. I've also watched this change unfold in big cities on the East and West Coast, most strongly among younger voters, since Bernie's candidacy in the 2016 election.

Yep it’s frustrating to be downvoted for simply pointing out the political elephant in the room.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#92

Post by thephyber »

chillacy wrote: post #70
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any career change is non-trivial for a mid-career worker and it's probably unrealistic that a majority of blue-collar workers would be able to transition into software jobs. Unrealistic in what sense? That most people are unable to learn managing state and code flow? I never hear anybody say "it is unrealistic for workers to learn Spanish/Russian/Mandarin/Japanese", yet I really feel basic programming is even easie…

I used to think that until I tried teaching people programming a few times, it's hard work, and a lot of people don't find it enjoyable. Additionally I heard people who do well in code school have prior programming experience as well, so it becomes more about selection and refining skills than actually making new programmers.

I don't think the "hard work" excuse works when you are talking about people who used to work in coal mines and have a family to support.

I think it's more likely that the basic math (algebra, geometry, etc) is missing when you look at men who started working in the mines before they finish high school. Without the math foundation, it's not "hard work", but a weak foundation which just causes frustration.

That, and a 58 year old guy learning to code will soon have to compete against a 20-something with far more education + computer + social media experience, especially since coding can be done overseas.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#93

Post by bdamm »

kennywinker wrote: post #57
craftyguy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if we hang these people out to dry we will pay the price down the line. If we continue promoting industries that cause the global climate to worsen more rapidly, we're going to pay a MUCH bigger price down the line. Taking jobs from folks who work in such an industry is a price worth paying, considering the alternative.

> Taking jobs from folks who work in such an industry is a price worth paying, considering the alternative. The options are not fire them or keep screwing the planet. There's a third option: fire them but don't HANG THEM OUT TO DRY. Provide a social safety net - retraining, early retirement, health care, etc. This is the whole idea behind the "green new deal"... catch the people who would otherwise be ground up by th…

It isn’t like governments haven’t been trying. Certain groups prefer “job creation” over “government programs” and then get angry when their industry collapses.

America has an education problem, and we need more people taking microeconomics in high school.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#94

Post by ianai »

egypturnash wrote: post #24
yardie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word socialism has lost the sting. Considering one of the top presidential candidates has been running in the platform for decades. And the DSA has made large gains in liberal cities. Simply calling something socialism isn’t the scarlet letter it used to be.

The more that capitalist greedheads label anything that involves being nice to people instead of seeing them as perfect libertarian spheres who act only in their own absolutely rational financial self interests as “socialism”, the more people who give even half a shit about their fellow humans start to think “socialism” must be pretty good.

You would think, but not quite. Blows my mind how many of those same people are living off of or approve of social security just in my own social circles.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#95

Post by godzillabrennus »

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

We should have begun building carbon extraction and deep burial facilities where they mined for coal.

That would have replaced blue collar jobs with blue collar jobs.

We need a carbon tax and federal funding to build these facilities.

Carbon extraction paired with more nuclear is what we need to invest in.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#96

Post by chillacy »

ianai wrote: post #12
toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When shipping firms moved to shipping containers mid 20th century, the productivity gains were split between corporations and the union to buy out longshoreman so there was a graceful transition out for these folks who were no longer needed. (Check out the book “The Box: How the Shipping Container Made the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger - Second Edition”, which goes into some detail about this) It’s not h…

That would be labeled socialism. Seemingly all it takes to defeat a proposal in US politics.

There are no purely capitalist or purely socialist societies, everything is a mix, even the US. The trick is finding the right balance between incentive and fairness.

I'd argue that the US needs some more fairness at this point in history given the income inequality increases since the 60s (gini coefficient), but without removing the incentives which drive the economy.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#97

Post by noobermin »

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#98

Post by chillacy »

tmp20191006cars wrote: post #45

I'm skeptical of several of the claims in this. Is 125 less parts "far fewer"? Have they really already automated electric car assembly better than gasoline vehicles, even though we've been doing that all my life? Are they really striking because they fear being replaced by robots, or is it for higher wages? History is full of labor transitions. Nobody makes wagon wheels anymore. Noboby cuts pins from wire. Certainly…

The industrial revolution of the past century featured mass riots which killed people. In response the government created entirely new and untested social programs like universal high school and labor union-friendly laws.

So yes, change is never easy, and this next revolution is projected to be faster and larger in scope. One could expect similar social unrest and new laws.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#99

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Until almost the singularity, humans have a lot to offer the economy. Effectively giving up on a whole group of people being productive isn't the right answer at all.

The plasticity of humans in the face of adversity and changing times is a fundamental part of humanity.

From entire Nations migrating across the world in search of a new Homeland in ancient times (e.g. Helvetii) to the mass migration of people in modern times (Irish potato famine and mass emigration), to entire industries being automated many many times. e.g. the etymological origin of sabotage is from labor disputes over automation. Similarly luddites engaged in sabotage in the 1800s. And many industries have either been virtually automated (farming) or made obsolete (blacksmiths), resulting in dramatic reductions in labor demand in those areas.

In any of these cases, humans persevered and ultimately found new purposes.

And while automation is only going to increase at an exponential rate and displacement similarly so, given that there is still so much productive potential left in humans, it would be a folly to simply give up on a group of people and just give them UBI.

I'm not saying UBI isn't part of the solution, but the solution also has to involve utilizing the productive capacity of humanity. Bc we have too many big problems to solve to switch an ever growing percentage of our population over to only be consumers (and not producers). They will be an ever growing tax on the rest of the population the will prevent us from putting as much investment into R&D and problem solving.

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