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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#441

Post by ssmoot »

freehunter wrote: post #400
ssmoot wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no death in this case (yet). The previous comment was referring to the raids in general (at least how I read it). And those are actually not all that uncommon.

Yeah I got that. But the link doesn't show it's all that common either. Basically none since 2011, and America is a big country. A handful a year across 330 million people is too many, but not nearly as common as the European and my parent are making it out to be.

The raids are very common.

Just because people don't die very often doesn't mean they're reasonable. Pointing rifles at innocent people practically indiscriminately ("wrong place, wrong time, now STFU citizen"), not letting parents attend to their scared and/or wounded children... there's just no justification for that.

It doesn't make it safer for suspects. It doesn't make it safer for police. It's certainly not safer for bystanders.

I'm not the sort to evoke "our fore-fathers", but I seriously doubt a militarized police force who could raid citizen's homes without notice is something they would approve of.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#442

Post by rrss1122 »

danielweber wrote: post #437
rdtsc wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is their response. It is not coherent, but this is not propositional logic. This is a militarized force that cannot be punished for their abuses, can and does inflict those abuses as will and it attracts saddists and psychopaths that cover each other asses. You are trying to come up with technical solutions (oh install sewer traps). The problem is not technical. It legal, and regulatory. There is no, 0, nada, zi…

I appreciate that my thought pattern (asking about sewer traps) sure sounds a lot like a clueless nerd using his technology hammer to fix a social problem he figures must be a nail. However, I am just gathering facts to figure out what other options are available to police. If certain states, as a citizen I am judged very harshly if I don't exhaust all options before using lethal force, even if it's happening in the…

Wanting the cops to do the same consideration of their other options is the regulatory and legal issue rdtsc was talking about. You want the cops to do that, you have to impose penalties that will actually be enforced on the cops, and the penalties have to be harsh.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#443

Post by dllthomas »

vsl wrote: post #429
dllthomas wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may not care, but the rest of us do.

The point is that there's nothing you can do. You are not the one making the choice. Hence the only solution is to restrain the police.

Sure, but my point goes to whether proposing sewer traps (or something similar) instead is an appropriate way of restraining the police.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#444

Post by dllthomas »

rrss1122 wrote: post #442
danielweber wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that my thought pattern (asking about sewer traps) sure sounds a lot like a clueless nerd using his technology hammer to fix a social problem he figures must be a nail. However, I am just gathering facts to figure out what other options are available to police. If certain states, as a citizen I am judged very harshly if I don't exhaust all options before using lethal force, even if it's happening in the…

Wanting the cops to do the same consideration of their other options is the regulatory and legal issue rdtsc was talking about. You want the cops to do that, you have to impose penalties that will actually be enforced on the cops, and the penalties have to be harsh.

The penalties will have to be sufficient that the EV of breaking the rules is negative, but harshness should only be one tool in achieving that. It is more important that the penalties be inforced, and harshness can actually undermine that.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#445

Post by dllthomas »

EpicEng wrote: post #412
dllthomas wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they serving a warrant, or just asking questions and eventually invited in?

We had a small party (only about eight people or so) and a couple of us got loud in the backyard. The neighbors called the cops and, where I lived, they were coming in, warrant or no warrant. We knew that, so down the toilet it went.

Interesting. Where was this, and what kind of interaction preceded their entry (if you recall)?

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#446

Post by opendais »

chc wrote: post #278
opendais wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me: > It would be a non-violent crime, probably. Non-violent crimes shouldn't result in swat teams. Where in here do you see 'hard drug ring'? Or 'hard drugs'? You: > I don't think "nonviolent" is a good description of a lot of hard drug rings. They aren't being violent right at the moment, but if they see a cop standing outside the door, they very well might just shoot him. No-knock warrants are by and large a horri…

You asserted that crimes where the police might need to barge in without knocking in order to prevent destruction of evidence are most likely nonviolent crimes. In fact, that kind of situation is almost exclusively drug crime, and the drug world is a violent place. As I said, the fact that no-knock SWAT teams are sent in indiscriminately is bad, but it doesn't mean that crimes where evidence can be flushed down the t…

It has been about a day without a response so I'm assuming you lack such sources/evidence to support your claim.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#447

Post by mcv »

opendais wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

You can't even be sure the people performing these "no knock warrants" aren't cops/former cops faking it to commit crimes against you: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/01/30/robbery-ring-disguis...

Exactly. This story sounds like a violent raid by a gang of thugs. What about all those Americans that own weapons in order to defend themselves and their homes? If you're allowed to shoot a stranger violently entering your home, doesn't that mean it's totally legal to shoot those cops? Don't they have to identify themselves as cops and present that warrant first? How else can you tell the difference between the cops and a well-equipped gang?

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#448

Post by [deleted] »

opendais wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

You can't even be sure the people performing these "no knock warrants" aren't cops/former cops faking it to commit crimes against you: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/01/30/robbery-ring-disguis...

[deleted]

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#450

Post by mercurial »

arethuza wrote: post #436
mercurial wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and this isn't much at all compared to what was going on in Algeria at the same time: large-scale torture (on both sides), bombings, summary executions... Fun times. Fortunately, democratic nations can't have "fun" on quite the same scale nowadays, though to be sure, the fellows enjoying US hospitality at Bagram airfield must have gotten their own "fun".

I recently watched The Battle for Algiers - what an incredible movie!

Good enough that it was used as an instruction manual, unfortunately. And several of the torturers would go on to teach various right-wing regimes how to extract information from prisoners.
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