A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son • Hacker News Board

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#411

Post by kika » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 1:19 AM UTC

thoth wrote: post #226

kika wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. Honest question: I'm walking past the somebody's house with an assault grenade in my hand. I feel miserable and I throw the grenade into the window. 5 people die. Is that negligence? I didn't know whose house is it, is there any people there, etc.

For starters, you should read the Illustrated Guide to Law ( http://lawcomic.net/guide/?page_id=5 ) and perhaps buy the print copy of the book. Focus on Chapter 6, about Mens Rea, and Chapter 8, Actus Reus. Then figure out whether the jury is going to believe that you didn't intend to harm anybody when you threw a grenade into a house.

Awesome book, thanks, exactly what law idiots like me need.

I actually ignored the jury factor, my fault. When police officers brutally kill someone they're still "our" guys, good guys.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#412

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 1:27 AM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #392

EpicEng wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, anecdotally, I've been in a house full of drugs when the cops showed up, and those drugs were gone before the cops stepped foot in the house. Yes, I had a not-so-optimal childhood.

Were they serving a warrant, or just asking questions and eventually invited in?

We had a small party (only about eight people or so) and a couple of us got loud in the backyard. The neighbors called the cops and, where I lived, they were coming in, warrant or no warrant. We knew that, so down the toilet it went.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#413

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #408

EpicEng wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, anecdotally, I've been in a house full of drugs when the cops showed up, and those drugs were gone before the cops stepped foot in the house. Yes, I had a not-so-optimal childhood.

Could you share how this was accomplished?

We chucked most down the toilet, some people ate some.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#414

Post by LyndsySimon » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:03 AM UTC

moo wrote: post #376

einrealist wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like in the the other European countries, too. If someone pulls a knife or even a pistol in Germany, the police will try its best to save even the offenders life - even if it takes hours.

The paramilitary home invasions authorized by U.S. injustice system is a small part of the increased militarization of the police who use military tactics and decommissioned military hardware stemming from the over decade long military interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia. Also "middle America", European descendant U.S. citizens have little altruism for homeless, undocumented and oppressed nation peoples (…

I'm easily a member of the "European descendant US citizens", and I don't exactly have a lot of say in it either.

I also find it odd that you included "stand your ground" laws in there. Those laws would actually protect a homeowner using deadly force in opposition to this type of raid in many cases.

I spend a large part of my free time engaged in the online firearms enthusiast community, and I can assure you that no group is more outspokenly opposed to these tactics as we are. The "militarization of police" is such a well-known thing that we have a few memes built around it. "Tacticool" is what we'd probably call these people, and it's something of a running joke that an police officer's professionalism is inversely proportional to the number of cargo pockets the have on their pants.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#415

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:06 AM UTC

hga wrote: post #388

EpicEng wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A scale with a bit of powder on it does not demand 10+ years in prison. A gun, if registered (and it's not like all dealers have illegal guns) carries no penalty in and of itself. They (the cops) need something to barter with. You're much more likely to get useful information from someone facing 10+ years than someone facing 1 year (6 months with good behavior) or probation. They want to find everything.

Registered??? In most of the US, and I suspect for most of the population, there is no such thing as registering guns (that would be akin to registering laser printers, especially those high capacity ones). On the other hand it's illegal for a drug user to possess a firearm, 18 USC § 922(g): http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

I meant "legally owned".

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#416

Post by LyndsySimon » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:06 AM UTC

henryw wrote: post #307

rayiner wrote: post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

Knocking down the door, okay fine. But did they really need to throw in a flashbang? Maybe they could have used some kind of thermal vision to see through the wall for children.

Thermal is blocked by windows, much less walls.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#417

Post by LyndsySimon » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:09 AM UTC

u124556 wrote: post #270

maratd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this specific story is staged in Atlanta, this is happening throughout the country, in every state. We need to stop the demented practice of selling surplus military equipment to local police departments. We're not saving money. Cops don't need armored cars, drones, grenades, etc.

But who are the weapon makers going to sell to? Won't somebody think of the weapon makers!

We (the American people) would happily buy all the Humvees and MRAPs that the FedGov wants to unload.

The thing is, we're prohibited by law from buying them at the moment.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#418

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:16 AM UTC

spacemanmatt wrote: post #373

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is one grenaded baby worth finding even 100lbs of meth? Not to me. // Does it matter if the meth might be causing far more pain to more people? This https://www.google.com/search?q=mother+on+meth+kills+child gives a lot of pretty stark reading material.

Does it matter if your death will moderately increase the happiness of a room full of bunnies? The group-ethics model has some pretty obvious limits, which I think you've violated in your example.

100lb (~45kg) at 50mg is about 900,000 doses of meth. I suspect the death rate per 900,000 doses is quite high and the expected outcome probably includes the death of at least one child.

In my question I'm asking if a simplistic comparative harm analysis would perhaps weigh in favour of non-terminal injury to an infant. It's a very difficult question, of course, and a true analysis couldn't be so simplistic (what proportion of those 900k doses would get replaced by alternate supplies for example). But raising the question seems valid.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#419

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:17 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #410

dllthomas wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't feel like a coherent response to my comment.

That is their response. It is not coherent, but this is not propositional logic. This is a militarized force that cannot be punished for their abuses, can and does inflict those abuses as will and it attracts saddists and psychopaths that cover each other asses. You are trying to come up with technical solutions (oh install sewer traps). The problem is not technical. It legal, and regulatory. There is no, 0, nada, zi…

They may not care, but the rest of us do.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#420

Post by sitkack » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:22 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #341

squozzer wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police believe themselves to be at war with everyone. They'd kill anyone they pleased if they could get away with it.

I don't think that that's quite a reasonable take on things either--I do not believe that officers wake up every day going "Man, I hope I get to shoot some kids today". Such hyperbole makes it harder to understand their position and hence to effect useful change.

Very few police ever fire their gun during their career. But an officer who killed a man by my work 2000, that was his third fatality. All same MO, mentally ill guy with a knife, close the distance under 21 feet and shoot.