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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#311

Post by dragontamer »

nathanb wrote: post #302
dragontamer wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Understand the structure of the system. SWAT teams and local police are a local problem, not a national one. Cases like this will happen all around the country, but there really isn't anything you can do about it. It is up to the local population to elect their police chiefs (or... elect mayors / governors who choose good police chiefs). 2. The "Executive Branch" of Obama honestly has nothing to do with this. Unde…

I am, in fact, aware of the difference between local, state, and federal government. Much like the US federal government, state governments are also divided into multiple branches, with law enforcement part of the executive branch. Municipal governments tend to be a little less well-defined, but still nominally respect a separation of powers. The author did not specify, but the news article linked below suggests that…

It is important to remember the separation. What is true at the national scale is rarely the case in a municipality. The legislative branch of my State for instance is clearly the powerhouse, and I feel like my fellow citizens didn't realize the obvious Gerrymandering that just destroyed the only Republican district of the state. (It came up for referendum but... no one seemed to notice the importance of the vote).

For the case of Georga / Cornelia... I really don't know. And unfortunately, its simply "their State, their problem".

On the national scale, I'd assume that the FBI can be pulled in to prosecute Georgia / Cornelia.

http://www.fbi.gov/minneapolis/press-releases/2014/former-po...

Remember: the FBI is the "watchers who watch the watchers". They can sue, prosecute, and arrest local police officers, and their national judicial system is entirely independent of a local municipality's judicial system. (Its unlikely that a local cop can play buddy-buddy with a national judge)

I would bet that there's a good case for "excessive force" here.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#312

Post by Floegipoky »

doe88 wrote: post #290
Floegipoky wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's technically possible, but in practice that's never how it works. The entire purpose behind no-knock is to take them by surprise before they can even think about resisting. They use immediately overwhelming "non-lethal" force so that they never have to escalate to a "lethal" level. Obviously the definitions of these terms are imprecise at best. Believe it or not, this is the safest way to do "no-knock" for everyo…

> Believe it or not, this is the safest way to do "no-knock" for everyone involved. Tell that to this child and to his parents.

I said safest, not safe. I'm not trying to defend no-knock raids; I believe them to be immoral, dangerous, and unconstitutional. I was merely trying to explain why these tactics are used.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#313

Post by einrealist »

abritishguy wrote: post #235
rayiner wrote: post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

We have the same thing in the UK, you won't see any flash bangs being used here though.

Like in the the other European countries, too.

If someone pulls a knife or even a pistol in Germany, the police will try its best to save even the offenders life - even if it takes hours.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#314

Post by Bootvis »

chc wrote: post #229
danielsiders wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in general the severity of the charge is directly proportional to the quantity of drugs. So if the quantity is instantly flushable, how serious of a charge can it have been, and thus how much accidental damage is acceptable in the arrest?

OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, 1 kg of cocaine is worth about $20K. Assuming cocaine has roughly the density of baking soda, this amount ought to be easily disposable in a single flush. So you could flush $100K worth of coke down a toilet in under a minute.

Seems optimistic to me. If you flush in rapid succession the reservoir has to fill again. I guess that a good flush requires, depending on circumstances, 20s of refilling. That would lower the throughput significantly. Also, the suspect has to move the cocaine from hiding to the toilet. Sure, $20K is a lot of money but were not talking Pablo Escobar-like quantities here.

Edit: also clogging, not sure when this happens and not really willing to experiment.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#315

Post by ars »

jliptzin wrote: post #280
nathanb wrote: post #224

What can we do about this? Like many of the commenters here, this article fills me with outrage. Even given the possibility/probability (as mentioned by iambateman) that the target of the SWAT team was guilty of meth pushing, armed, and dangerous. What can an individual do to effect change? The executive branch seem to be nigh-invulnerable these days. Checks and balances don't work when it's the enforcement arm who n…

Legalize all drugs, and fill each one with literature about how damaging it is to you (similar to what some countries do on cigarette packs). If you can get heroin at CVS, you wouldn't need to go to your local drug dealer and help finance his shady/violent activities. I know it sounds crazy but we already knowingly sell stuff that can kill you (cigarettes, alcohol). The gangs/drug dealers would simply not survive if…

That solves nothing whatsoever. People aren't selling drugs because they believe everyone should have access to them.

They sell drugs because it makes money. Legalize drugs and they'll make money some other illegal and dangerous way.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#316

Post by paulhauggis »

jliptzin wrote: post #280
nathanb wrote: post #224

What can we do about this? Like many of the commenters here, this article fills me with outrage. Even given the possibility/probability (as mentioned by iambateman) that the target of the SWAT team was guilty of meth pushing, armed, and dangerous. What can an individual do to effect change? The executive branch seem to be nigh-invulnerable these days. Checks and balances don't work when it's the enforcement arm who n…

Legalize all drugs, and fill each one with literature about how damaging it is to you (similar to what some countries do on cigarette packs). If you can get heroin at CVS, you wouldn't need to go to your local drug dealer and help finance his shady/violent activities. I know it sounds crazy but we already knowingly sell stuff that can kill you (cigarettes, alcohol). The gangs/drug dealers would simply not survive if…

And who gets to foot the bill for all of these new addicts?

The cigarette companies have been used for years for killing people. Imagine he amount of people using for ods.

Tort reform would also be need for this to ever work.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#317

Post by anon4 »

refurb wrote: post #253
iagooar wrote: post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

Go onto youtube and search for "german police beating". There are hours of footage of German police kicking the crap out of protesters (punches to the face, etc). The German police are notorious for being very physical.

Punches to the face are better than holes in the chest. If I had to pick from "will get punched in the face with 90% certainty" or "will get a hole in the chest with 0.01% certainty", I'd pick the first one. Heck, I'd punch myself in the face once for good measure, too.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#318

Post by einrealist »

anon4 wrote: post #300
nathanb wrote: post #224

What can we do about this? Like many of the commenters here, this article fills me with outrage. Even given the possibility/probability (as mentioned by iambateman) that the target of the SWAT team was guilty of meth pushing, armed, and dangerous. What can an individual do to effect change? The executive branch seem to be nigh-invulnerable these days. Checks and balances don't work when it's the enforcement arm who n…

Long term? Make these sorts of stories public, demand change, write to your representatives, write to the media. Takes about 40 to 80 years. Short term? 1/2 meter thick concrete walls and doors, barred windows. Though that might set off alarms for the police, so a better solution would be a bunker space under your house where you sleep and spend your time indoors. Of course also have a bedroom above ground so you can…

The the police will get tanks and shell their way into your bunker. The police is engaged in an arms race. But they are the only ones who are in the race.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#319

Post by chc »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #284
chc wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "nonviolent" is a good description of a lot of hard drug rings. They aren't being violent right at the moment, but if they see a cop standing outside the door, they very well might just shoot him. No-knock warrants are by and large a horrible thing and SWAT teams are drastically overused, but that doesn't make the problem they are meant to address any less real.

Prohibition 101: 1. The act being prohibited is nonviolent; injecting heroin, for example, involves zero violence. 2. The prohibition itself creates the violent black market organizations; if heroin were legal, the black market organizations wouldn't exist. 3. Thus yes, nonviolent laws.

This is true to some degree, though I think legalizing many drugs would still not take away a large portion of the associated criminality. People with bad coke or meth addictions just don't care very much who they hurt.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#320

Post by pkfrank »

chc wrote: post #229
danielsiders wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in general the severity of the charge is directly proportional to the quantity of drugs. So if the quantity is instantly flushable, how serious of a charge can it have been, and thus how much accidental damage is acceptable in the arrest?

OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, 1 kg of cocaine is worth about $20K. Assuming cocaine has roughly the density of baking soda, this amount ought to be easily disposable in a single flush. So you could flush $100K worth of coke down a toilet in under a minute.

@Bootvis

You could also just rig an external reservoir (or have a full bucket lying around) to rapidly refill the back tank. Though that would of course be fairly incriminating.

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