A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son • Hacker News Board

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#431

Post by mercurial » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 9:06 AM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #366

mercurial wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

That was dreadful and I feel slightly ashamed for never having heard of it! The response of the policeman who said: "What happened on 17 October 1961 and in the following days against the peaceful demonstrators, on which no weapons were found, morally forces us to bring our testimony and to alert public opinion... All guilty people must be punished. The punishment must be extended to all of the responsible people, th…

Oh, and this isn't much at all compared to what was going on in Algeria at the same time: large-scale torture (on both sides), bombings, summary executions... Fun times. Fortunately, democratic nations can't have "fun" on quite the same scale nowadays, though to be sure, the fellows enjoying US hospitality at Bagram airfield must have gotten their own "fun".

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#432

Post by iagooar » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 10:21 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #253

iagooar wrote: post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

Go onto youtube and search for "german police beating". There are hours of footage of German police kicking the crap out of protesters (punches to the face, etc). The German police are notorious for being very physical.

That's not a good comparison, show me a video of German police raiding a house while using extreme violence. Not that I'm a big fan of the police, but in this case it's comparing apples to oranges.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#433

Post by a3n » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:14 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #232

moggflunkies wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"don't mind me poor 100% black community im just here from ADT to install this randomly hallarious HD camera and wireless antenna facing this decrepit house" king of non-suspicious behavior

The typical utility company truck (gas, electricity, water) can be parked outside and someone could install any number of objects that contain cameras/microphones, but don't look like one. Resorting to an obvious strawman does nothing.

That would be dangerous for the utility company employees, because this tactic would quickly become known, and all utility vehicles and employees would then be viewed with hostility and suspicion by criminals and other residents.

Similar to the vaccination blowback after the Bin Laden raid.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#434

Post by hga » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:37 PM UTC

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #426

moo wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paramilitary home invasions authorized by U.S. injustice system is a small part of the increased militarization of the police who use military tactics and decommissioned military hardware stemming from the over decade long military interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia. Also "middle America", European descendant U.S. citizens have little altruism for homeless, undocumented and oppressed nation peoples (…

The militarization of the police predates Iraq 2 by at least a decade, it was happening under the Clinton administration, who authorized letting national guard equipment be loaned to police for any activity that could be plausibly connected to drugs. I knew about it because my dad was a member of the NRA. The big, bad NRA used to write about police militarization and criminal abuses of force by federal agencies every…

BTW, it was liberal except for some things like gun control Democratic Michigan Congressman John Dingell who first referred to the BATF as "jack-booted" "fascists" (he routinely used that word), as early as 1981. Although at the time he probably was a member of the NRA's 76 member Board of Directors.

SWAT excesses in the "War on Drugs" started in the '70s, there was some back and forth, first encouragement of that, then a reaction to the excesses.

It was Waco, started by the BATF as a "rice bowl raid", that is, a big publicity event prior to asking for more money in the next Federal fiscal year, that really brought this to a head with Dingell, the NRA, gun owners, and other concerned citizens.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#435

Post by hga » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:46 PM UTC

moo wrote: post #422

LyndsySimon wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm easily a member of the "European descendant US citizens", and I don't exactly have a lot of say in it either. I also find it odd that you included "stand your ground" laws in there. Those laws would actually protect a homeowner using deadly force in opposition to this type of raid in many cases. I spend a large part of my free time engaged in the online firearms enthusiast community, and I can assure you that no…

Jose Guerena was armed and a Marine vet protecting his family but Tuscon SWAT still killed him(1). But it can go the other way as police have been shot and killed in paramilitary raids. I brought up "stand your ground" laws as indicative of middle America's mindset for more lethal response to the perceived criminal threat in their communities. That mindset has also included support for harsher sentencing and more pol…

"stand your ground" laws, are, I suppose, "more lethal" in the sense they don't require you to retreat if theoretically possible as viewed in the calm of a criminal trial, but I think you're otherwise vastly overstating what the "indicate". Using the loaded term "reactionary" strikes me as entirely out of place.

WRT to Jose Guerena, with the exception of Massachusetts at certain points in the '70s-80s, I don't know of any state that requires or required you to retreat from your own residence. It's unthinkable Arizona would have ever required that.

Finally, I don't see how it helps anything to paint people like us as racists, especially, as LyndsySimon points out, we've been the biggest group fighting for the longest time the tactics that are being discussed here.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#436

Post by arethuza » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:51 PM UTC

mercurial wrote: post #431

arethuza wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was dreadful and I feel slightly ashamed for never having heard of it! The response of the policeman who said: "What happened on 17 October 1961 and in the following days against the peaceful demonstrators, on which no weapons were found, morally forces us to bring our testimony and to alert public opinion... All guilty people must be punished. The punishment must be extended to all of the responsible people, th…

Oh, and this isn't much at all compared to what was going on in Algeria at the same time: large-scale torture (on both sides), bombings, summary executions... Fun times. Fortunately, democratic nations can't have "fun" on quite the same scale nowadays, though to be sure, the fellows enjoying US hospitality at Bagram airfield must have gotten their own "fun".

I recently watched The Battle for Algiers - what an incredible movie!

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#437

Post by danielweber » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:58 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #410

dllthomas wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't feel like a coherent response to my comment.

That is their response. It is not coherent, but this is not propositional logic. This is a militarized force that cannot be punished for their abuses, can and does inflict those abuses as will and it attracts saddists and psychopaths that cover each other asses. You are trying to come up with technical solutions (oh install sewer traps). The problem is not technical. It legal, and regulatory. There is no, 0, nada, zi…

I appreciate that my thought pattern (asking about sewer traps) sure sounds a lot like a clueless nerd using his technology hammer to fix a social problem he figures must be a nail.

However, I am just gathering facts to figure out what other options are available to police. If certain states, as a citizen I am judged very harshly if I don't exhaust all options before using lethal force, even if it's happening in the heat of the moment. I want the cops to do the same consideration of their other options, at least when it's an operation they get to plan out ahead of time to happen under the time of their choosing.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#438

Post by deciplex » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:59 PM UTC

Floegipoky wrote: post #269

metacorrector wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree, the grenade that was thrown is not part of no-knock, it's because of the extreme violence that gang style criminals are apt to use. You could have no-knock raids to capture evidence without needing to stun everybody.

It's technically possible, but in practice that's never how it works. The entire purpose behind no-knock is to take them by surprise before they can even think about resisting. They use immediately overwhelming "non-lethal" force so that they never have to escalate to a "lethal" level. Obviously the definitions of these terms are imprecise at best. Believe it or not, this is the safest way to do "no-knock" for everyo…

Yes, it is true that the most efficient way to oppress people is to do it with maximum available force and brutality, such that they are utterly unable to resist.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#439

Post by danielweber » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 1:02 PM UTC

wdmeldon wrote: post #342

chc wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, 1 kg of cocaine is worth about $20K. Assuming cocaine has roughly the density of baking soda, this amount ought to be easily disposable in a single flush. So you could flush $100K worth of coke down a toilet in under a minute.

Imagine pushing 5kg worth of cocaine down a toilet while, most likely, incredibly strung out on said cocaine, with the SWAT team beating on your door. Couple that with the fact that they likely aren't stored in easy to open bags designed for pouring and what you're looking at is a bathroom full cocaine and a seriously clogged toilet. You've got to get rid of the plastic too, remember. Maybe they bust you with less, b…

If I am required to maintain documents in a civil case, and I destroy them, generally the other side is allowed to assume they were as bad as possible.

Does this apply in criminal trials? If there's evidence I was flushing drugs down the toilet (and such evidence would be there), can the state be allowed to assume I had a lot more of the drug than I really did? What are the policy implications?

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#440

Post by GFischer » Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 2:10 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #267

jacquesm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think it will ever end?

Marijuana is legalized for recreational use in two states, and for medical use in twenty-three (including those two recreational states). It's also decriminalized in six more. The national government is starting to talk about rescheduling it as well. There'll still be other drugs to chase after but clearly SOMETHING is changing here.

It's fully legalized here in Uruguay, and the sky hasn't fallen yet.