An open letter on feminism in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#131

Post by arzugula » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #72

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

"So what do we call the feminists who ..." A parody. That one's easy.

Ahh, so all of those racist Aryan Nation members are just parodies, since the marketing slogan of the Aryan Nation claims their ideology to be one of "love and pride".

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#132

Post by baddox » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #120

optimusclimb wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.

Why you appear not to believe them (I can't know your beliefs I can only guess based off the text of your comment): 1. Has any man here "heard of, or come into contact with any of" any of this behavior? 2. Personally, "I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth..."* These statements suggest strong skepticism. Analogy: "Has anyone here actually experienced or come into…

I tend to think that skepticism is a good thing.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#133

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #102

lotsofmangos wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles. This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.

Wouldn't they get that exposure during university though? I certainly had long-held views challenged and changed during my time in college, where I was exposed to a much larger spectrum of the population compared to my predominantly Caucasian, upper-middle class upbringing.* * I briefly attended a UK postgraduate institution.

Oxbridge still has gender segregated colleges, though (I think) they are a minority of colleges now.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#134

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #33

"Some men made statements that made us feel unwelcome in the tech industry" We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry. But seriously, are people expecting 100% support from all sections of society? Is that even a realistic expectation?

[deleted]

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#135

Post by zo1 » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:16 PM UTC

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

You're getting downvoted probably because you're making people uncomfortable. It doesn't fit their world-view, and they will do their best to shut you down so that they don't have to face themselves on their predecided views/opinions.

People refuse knowledge because it means responsibility.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#136

Post by optimusclimb » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

anildash wrote: post #114

optimusclimb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps…

Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of th…

I edited my post (only to add, not change it.) After reflection, I think it was a little off base, even if well intentioned.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#137

Post by cjbprime » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

jugglingcode wrote: post #14

From the stories that have come out it sounds that avoiding this behaviour is practically impossible to avoid if you are woman. That's a terrible working env. This also appears to be an American problem. I find this difficult to imagine happening as pervasively ( not saying it doesn't happen at all) in London or Berlin or any of the other European tech hubs. The problem may be more evident in America because it has t…

I agree that women in the US generally seem to talk more about bad experiences they have in tech than women in Europe. But there are several possible explanations for this observation, and you've picked the laziest one.

For example, consider the possibility that people become more willing to report bad experiences if the people they tell will be willing to acknowledge that the problem is not uncommon, and unlikely to react with disbelief.

That would explain our observation without suggesting that Europe has fewer incidents; in fact it would suggest that it has more, but doesn't have a culture of admitting and dealing with them.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#138

Post by angersock » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

ronaldx wrote: post #31

swombat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.

If you don't believe the article deserves the association, please elaborate on why that is the case.

One of the many problems feminism has faced is the lumping in of extremists with more moderates with all sorts of other splinter views; it's to be expected that your work may face the same criticisms.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#139

Post by Tycho » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #16

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks "This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years." https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

I remember reading through that account's tweets when pg was accused of saying teenage girls can't code or something. Thought the author was pretty despicable. No surprise there was no apology or retraction when the full context / truth of that interview was revealed a few days later.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#140

Post by _bfhp » Thu, May 22, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #121

_bfhp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out. Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Mayb…

Disallowing people from having/expressing an opinion as to how helpful/thoughtful a piece is -- particularly a positive opinion -- seems as problematic as disallowing some pieces. Maybe it's better to just let people express it when something resonates with them. (And while any judgment on how thoughtful a piece is probably subjective, it seems unlikely that every piece is equivalent in how broadly it leads people th…

I'm not saying "don't allow men to give their opinions on feminism articles," I'm saying that "this feminism article really helped me understand things better/gave me a new perspective" is infinitely more polite and fair than "this article is good, better than those other feminism articles I've read."

You don't have to push other women down to congratulate the ones who speak in the way you like. Feminism, from what I've gathered over the years, involves working to understand the experiences of all women.