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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#111

Post by _bfhp »

swombat wrote: post #21
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

There is no "ultra-feminist movement"; feminism is an umbrella term for a multitude of movements across time and geography. Each movement is understood within a context, and some take more time to understand than others. I would suggest the book Gender Inequality by Judith Lorber as a starting point.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#112

Post by lotsofmangos »

gmacdon89 wrote: post #60
taybin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorized though? I'm not sure that being critical of some blog posts rises to that level.

extremists tend to use this wording.

Nearly all journalists use that kind of wording, and I am not sure that they are all extremists. Emotionally loading a sentence to make a point is normal rhetoric.

As you should know, as it is the same technique you have just used.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#113

Post by sarajo »

mreiland wrote: post #96
[deleted] wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Native American, male. I was supposed to be White wasn't I? I wonder how many Native American's there are in our industry... actually I lied, I don't care tbh. Why don't you ask about the 100% female company I contract with, or how that doesn't bother me even if it should. edit: for those that are curious, the deleted post was someone who claimed to be a caucasian female asking for my gender and race, and hinting str…

I deleted as it wasn't a useful conversation either way.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#114

Post by anildash »

optimusclimb wrote: post #26
anildash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps…

Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.)

If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of the business. And even within engineering-focused disciplines, there used to be far more women involved but the number has been going down in recent decades.

But the question all of us men have to ask ourselves is: Why do you need another source. You had a whole range of people already telling you what they saw, and you're looking for people who by definition would have less information about this topic to provide their opinions. Why do you think that's the case?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#115

Post by zo1 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #11
cheez wrote: post #5

FTA: > The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech: > Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public) My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an a…

> The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all. Many people have switched to saying 'partner' for all relationships to help demonstrate their support for gay marriage. > Everyone wanted to see proof. He already pled guilty. > Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Well, it's an example of someone's incredibly personal abuse story possibly being shown to millions o…

"He already pled guilty."

Looks like someone didn't bother to click through to the meaty articles about that point. The police dropped all charges against him, and he plead to a misdemeanor with a fine.

Imagine this... You find out your partner of who knows how long, has been having unprotected sex for money for (I think the article said years). I say she deserves a beating if that was true. In my book, she's throwing dice around with his life/health. And if they have kids, she's messing with their future and well-being as well. Horrible, and just goes to show that sexism is alive and well, but not as they portray it. Because we're up in arms about a guy smacking around someone who happens to be female, because she put his life in danger.

People on the internet love being outraged. And this article is just fanning the shit around even more to further their cause. I feel for them, and there might even be true discrimination out there against women, but attention seeks like the ones in this article are doing them a disservice. If not out right mocking them by using their problems for personal PR.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#116

Post by mreiland »

danilocampos wrote: post #101
mreiland wrote: post #61

I just want to develop software, and I don't personally give a shit about the gender of the people I'm working with. ...Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat. If I get to choose between the male that just wants to develop software and the female who wants to tell me all about how terrible it is working in our industry as a woman, I'm going to pick the male. Why? Because I'm very goal oriented…

> I just want to develop software So do they.

Many of them do. The ones going on crusades do not, they are the ones I'm specifically referring to.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#117

Post by mreiland »

sarajo wrote: post #113
mreiland wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native American, male. I was supposed to be White wasn't I? I wonder how many Native American's there are in our industry... actually I lied, I don't care tbh. Why don't you ask about the 100% female company I contract with, or how that doesn't bother me even if it should. edit: for those that are curious, the deleted post was someone who claimed to be a caucasian female asking for my gender and race, and hinting str…

I deleted as it wasn't a useful conversation either way.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you asked the question to begin with.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#118

Post by _bfhp »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #24

One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems? Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph: Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. The author(s) re…

"sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion"

Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of course, I would never use those terms at HN in the way you used yours, because I value real discourse.

Your central point is of course correct: "feminism" is an umbrella term (heck that's the first sentence on the Wikipedia page). Using ignorance of that fact as an opportunity to propagandize is shameful.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#119

Post by jamesaguilar »

taybin wrote: post #25
danshapiro wrote: post #15

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing: "Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?" This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm…

Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good. Edited to fix pronoun.

I think this is fine. If you make a bad mistake, even with good intentions, it is reasonable for others to be angry at you. "I was trying" is not a universal defense.

"I was trying, I see what I did wrong, thank you for the correction and I'll try to do better next time," however, goes a long way. If Jeff acknowledges his mistakes -- supposing he is convinced they are mistakes -- and makes an honest attempt to be better, anger will likely turn into forgiveness.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#120

Post by sequoia »

optimusclimb wrote: post #85
sequoia wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?' To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man…

I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.

Why you appear not to believe them (I can't know your beliefs I can only guess based off the text of your comment):

1. Has any man here "heard of, or come into contact with any of" any of this behavior?

2. Personally, "I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth..."*

These statements suggest strong skepticism. Analogy: "Has anyone here actually experienced or come into contact with Climate Change? Personally I have not, nor have I ever heard of anyone having experienced it..." doesn't believe climate change is real. This is what your comment suggests about the issues described in TFA.

*Yes I know you mentioned the "terrible sample set" but that doesn't un-ring the "I'm skeptical" bell.

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