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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#81

Post by minikites »

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

It's disappointing that you think advances in rights for women have to come at the expense of men.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#82

Post by dropit_sphere »

anildash wrote: post #10
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

That's not the logic. It's more: "I'm an iOS user and every time an Android device is on the network my phone crashes." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Have any other Android users seen this?"

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#83

Post by Fomite »

jugglingcode wrote: post #14

From the stories that have come out it sounds that avoiding this behaviour is practically impossible to avoid if you are woman. That's a terrible working env. This also appears to be an American problem. I find this difficult to imagine happening as pervasively ( not saying it doesn't happen at all) in London or Berlin or any of the other European tech hubs. The problem may be more evident in America because it has t…

Sexism is notoriously pervasive in Europe. And America. And really, the entire fucking globe.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#84

Post by optimusclimb »

jdp23 wrote: post #58
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly. If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments. If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't t…

If, in posting something out of concern, and in trying to understand something better, I still am going to get chastised for "doing it wrong", then it really is an uphill battle.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#85

Post by optimusclimb »

sequoia wrote: post #78
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?' To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man…

I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#86

Post by mbillie1 »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places.

> Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.

So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#87

Post by taybin »

freerobby wrote: post #65
taybin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good. Edited to fix pronoun.

I assumed that was a dig at Jeff Atwood, who initially refused to link to Shanley's piece on the grounds that it was hateful.

I wasn't aware of that context. Generally, I'm not a fan of not linking to pieces you're criticizing.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#88

Post by Fomite »

kmf wrote: post #54
joaren wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. What's going on is that the feminists of MVC are looking at the extremes: extreme abuse, or extreme success. What they don't care about is that this is an industry where 40 hour work weeks are a luxury, and the average neckbeard sysadmin is despised by HR even as he fixes their boxes for the n'th time. As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. But since the bottom half of men are i…

> As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. Can you honestly write that and actually believe it? Even better, can you give some examples to justify it? That's a pretty big claim, and one that, at face value, seems pretty unlikely.

I can't even read it with a straight face.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#89

Post by FD3SA »

Such a fascinating article. Let's break this post down:

- Anecdotes used for evidence (check)

- Moral outrage declared (check)

- Call to arms based on emotion (check)

- Appeal to baseless fanatical ideology (check)

- Vilification of a massive segment of the population as homogeneous villians (check)

There really appears to be a massive disconnect between very high intelligence and the ability to accurately observe the real world. Or perhaps in the age when page views reign supreme, rational empirical analysis becomes a vestigial burden from a bygone era.

For you rebels out there who still demand scientific rigor in your articles, please consider an expert's opinion on the matter at your discretion [1].

1. http://edge.org/memberbio/helena_cronin

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#90

Post by danilocampos »

_bfhp wrote: post #71
sama wrote: post #34

this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue. it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out. Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Mayb…

Um, or it could be that this is just pretty well done, as a result of multiple voices contributing and the hard work of Shanley Kane as editor.
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