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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#51

Post by nimbupani »

epeus wrote: post #20
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commo…

I am one of the contributors to the parent article.

We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents:

- http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...

- http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com...

- http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/

- https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e

- http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698

- http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm...

- http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger...

- http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b...

- http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm...

- https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e

- http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/

- http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...

I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#52

Post by stefantalpalaru »

kevingadd wrote: post #35
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #24

One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems? Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph: Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. The author(s) re…

Do you have a better solution to propose, then?

Replace ideology with logic.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#53

Post by mreiland »

steveklabnik wrote: post #11
cheez wrote: post #5

FTA: > The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech: > Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public) My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an a…

> The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all. Many people have switched to saying 'partner' for all relationships to help demonstrate their support for gay marriage. > Everyone wanted to see proof. He already pled guilty. > Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Well, it's an example of someone's incredibly personal abuse story possibly being shown to millions o…

> Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty.

Still has little to do with gender bias. The investors are there for the money. I've seen companies keep known alcoholics around because they provide enough value for said company to deal with it.

The issue isn't that it happened, it's attributing it to simple gender bias. It's dishonest.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#54

Post by kmf »

joaren wrote: post #12
cheez wrote: post #5

FTA: > The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech: > Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public) My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an a…

Exactly. What's going on is that the feminists of MVC are looking at the extremes: extreme abuse, or extreme success. What they don't care about is that this is an industry where 40 hour work weeks are a luxury, and the average neckbeard sysadmin is despised by HR even as he fixes their boxes for the n'th time. As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. But since the bottom half of men are i…

> As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse.

Can you honestly write that and actually believe it? Even better, can you give some examples to justify it? That's a pretty big claim, and one that, at face value, seems pretty unlikely.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#55

Post by optimusclimb »

forgottenpass wrote: post #32
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. Ther…

> I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.

Do you mean from men at bars in general? Or are you talking about when they're out with coworkers/other people in the industry?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#56

Post by gurkendoktor »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

My experience has been the same as yours, but:

> Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else

Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug)

I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#57

Post by jacquesgt »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Why is this question only directed at men? Are women's views on this matter invalid because they're held by women?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#58

Post by jdp23 »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly.

If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments.

If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#59

Post by steveklabnik »

mreiland wrote: post #53
steveklabnik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all. Many people have switched to saying 'partner' for all relationships to help demonstrate their support for gay marriage. > Everyone wanted to see proof. He already pled guilty. > Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Well, it's an example of someone's incredibly personal abuse story possibly being shown to millions o…

> Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty. Still has little to do with gender bias. The investors are there for the money. I've seen companies keep known alcoholics around because they provide enough value for said company to deal with it. The issue isn't tha…

Nobody is claiming that it's cause is simply bias. It's a particular instance of the general structural issues women face.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#60

Post by gmacdon89 »

taybin wrote: post #39
jmduke wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've downvoted you, because I don't feel that your comment is particularly germane to the submission itself. (And I've seen enough minority/feminism-related discussions on HN to overwhelmingly agree that the community here is often incredibly hostile to women.)

Terrorized though? I'm not sure that being critical of some blog posts rises to that level.

extremists tend to use this wording.
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