Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An open letter on feminism in tech

modelviewculture.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 335 posts

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#11

Post by steveklabnik »

cheez wrote: post #5

FTA: > The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech: > Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public) My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an a…

> The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all.

Many people have switched to saying 'partner' for all relationships to help demonstrate their support for gay marriage.

> Everyone wanted to see proof.

He already pled guilty.

> Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech?

Well, it's an example of someone's incredibly personal abuse story possibly being shown to millions of people against their will.

Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty.

> Why not everywhere?

Something can be a problem in a certain industry, and also in general. Both statements can be true.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#12

Post by joaren »

cheez wrote: post #5

FTA: > The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech: > Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public) My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an a…

Exactly. What's going on is that the feminists of MVC are looking at the extremes: extreme abuse, or extreme success. What they don't care about is that this is an industry where 40 hour work weeks are a luxury, and the average neckbeard sysadmin is despised by HR even as he fixes their boxes for the n'th time.

As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. But since the bottom half of men are invisible, everyone focuses on the 'poor' victimized women instead.

Roy Baumeister's "Is There Anything Good About Men?" explains this well, but they'd never read it because it's "MRA".

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#13

Post by [deleted] »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

[deleted]

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#14

Post by jugglingcode »

From the stories that have come out it sounds that avoiding this behaviour is practically impossible to avoid if you are woman. That's a terrible working env.

This also appears to be an American problem. I find this difficult to imagine happening as pervasively ( not saying it doesn't happen at all) in London or Berlin or any of the other European tech hubs. The problem may be more evident in America because it has the largest and most successful tech community presenting more opportunities for alienating behaviour around women to be amplified. The reasons are likely to be more multi-faceted and complex.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#15

Post by danshapiro »

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing:

"Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?"

This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm ignorant about these things. I don't truly understand the challenges that women face in our industry. And because I'm relatively ignorant, I worry that I might say something that was intended as supportive but winds up contributing to the problem: white-knighting, disempowering, calling attention to something that the person affected wanted to leave alone.

Personally, I've come to terms that I'm going to try my best and risk screwing up occasionally. It's scary but I think it's better than the alternative of sitting by and doing nothing. But it makes me feel a lot better to hear that I'm not alone in worrying about this.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#17

Post by worksaf »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace.

I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her.

I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#18

Post by dstaley »

danshapiro wrote: post #15

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing: "Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?" This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm…

This wonderful article by Julie Pagano might be of interest to you! http://juliepagano.com/blog/2014/05/03/ally-smells-fear-of-s...

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#19

Post by jmduke »

dominotw wrote: post #16

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks "This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years." https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

I've downvoted you, because I don't feel that your comment is particularly germane to the submission itself.

(And I've seen enough minority/feminism-related discussions on HN to overwhelmingly agree that the community here is often incredibly hostile to women.)

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#20

Post by epeus »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them.

So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said.

This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.

Post reply on HN