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What is really happening in Ukraine

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Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#241

Post by work_account_1 »

tptacek wrote: post #193
barrkel wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USG chose the option that killed the fewest innocent civilians. That is an enormously presumptive statement that you're not qualified to assert. It's so big I'm fairly sure it's wrong; the probability is very much against it. Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been killed in "preemptive" wars the US started post 9/11. Even taking US air strikes alone, the kind of operations that the US has been engaged…

Look at the options more carefully: (1) Leave al-Awlaki alone, situated in the middle of AQAP home territory, and hope that he doesn't succeed in his evident ambitions to coordinate attacks against Europe, America, India, Russia, and Indonesia. This is the strategy Clinton employed against Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. You and I might debate it, but a realistic analysis of the circumstances of al-Awlaki has…

Are those seriously the only options? Ignore, kill a US citizen with a drone strike, or have a full-out invasion resulting in hundreds or thousands killed?

Citizenship can be revoked, but I'm pretty sure that matter needs to be decided by a judge, not the President. Am I incorrect?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#242

Post by dmytrish »

malkung wrote: post #201
dmytrish wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Svoboda had to give up much of its "radical" appeal to gain real popularity. Now its target audience is not marginal skinheads and radical nationalists, Svoboda has attracted a lot, a lot of people (10% of votes in Ukraine in 2012) who don't want to vote for the old corrupted opposition (Tymoshenko's "Batkivshchyna", Socialist Party of Ukraine, Green Movement, etc) and don't trust their hollow "patriotism". Yes, you…

Constantly burning car tires, large-scale production of Molotov cocktails, great skills at building barricades, lots of people wearing body protection ... This does not look like self-organization at all. Surely, someone has been seriously training for this.

> Constantly burning car tires - that does not require any training and was invented after few days of inhaling police tear gas.

> large-scale production of Molotov cocktails - please see the previous HN post (by a russian blogger, Zyalt) where you can see _poorly_ made "cocktails" that often ignite the thrower. They're made in a hurry by women behind the front line. The large slingshot is also quite a masterpiece of preparation (irony)!

> Body protection - is essential to be protected from police assaults later. I saw those protesters in the first day when they were completely unprotected.

> great skills at building barricades - sure, peaceful guards of Maidan had a great opportunity to learn how to do that during several police assaults at nights long before the violent resistance began (there were 2 months of peaceful protests at Maidan before radicals started violent actions on Hrushevskogo street - and Maidan is still a place for peaceful protest). Large barricades appeared after a police raid at night on December 11 when police tried to disassemble fences around Maidan using tear gas, sticks and physical pressure. Nobody used explicit violence at that time, but that was a great lesson how to defense.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#243

Post by work_account_1 »

tptacek wrote: post #187
ash wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about (4) trial in absentia? Is it possible under US laws?

A trial in absentia would have been preferable to a fiat killing, but the end result would have been the same. The US had no means of apprehending al-Awlaki because he had situated himself in a war zone controlled by AQAP. The trial would have concluded, and the US would have faced the same 3 choices. You make a good point, but not one that fundamentally changed the options on the ground.

Those options would then be OK to consider. Would you be OK with skipping trials for people here in the US if we were sure they'd be found guilty anyway, so the end result should be the same?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#244

Post by darkbot »

xentronium wrote: post #95
egao1980 wrote: post #76

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2... Nazis are all over the barricades. Ukrainian riot police is more than capable of doing European G8 style riot control but is ordered not to do so because of the huge pressure from EU and USA. Finally, imagine Ukrainian or Russian officials going into crowds of Occupy Wall Street or Paris protests urging to overthrow the government and giving their suppor…

Everyone is over the barricades now, left, right, centrists, politically unaffiliated.

Not true. The barricades are guarded by the "Right Sector", who will only let their own ranks come near it to, quote, "[not] to prevent them from interfering with work."

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#246

Post by mercurial »

rayiner wrote: post #191
mercurial wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm annoyed at myself for feeding this thread which has really nothing to do with the Ukrainian situation, but you make it sound like drone strikes only hit terrorists. I'm sorry, but you've been fed the wrong narrative. Take, for instance, this extract from [1]: An estimated 286 to 890 civilians have been killed, including 168 to 197 children. I'm not saying that it's done on purpose, and intent does matter when con…

D9u's post was not about drone strikes in general, but Anwar Al Awlaki specifically ("U.S. citizen and his teenage son.")

My bad. Fair enough, then.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#247

Post by avasylev »

pipy wrote: post #221
avasylev wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should have also cited some Russian news... But there's some truth in this - 'Svoboda' is indeed far-right party, but it definitely doesn't have trained militants and I don't recall any "hate crimes against migrants and political opponents". 'Svoboda' is only one of the forces, having or not having Svoboda there doesn't change anything.

> You should have also cited some Russian news... I do investigate my sources of information and, when discussing anything, I always try to use sources that are legitimate to all discussing parties. So, please, don't invent stuff. This information source is not sympathetic to Russia. Also, it supports the Ukrainian protests. I have yet to read a single article from Cпільне that is pro-Russia in even the slightest way…

I'm not familiar with the source, but abstract you cited is manipulation. There's no trained militants, nazi, etc. Such texts are used to divide East/West Ukraine, so current regime can survive (classic divide and conquer).

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#248

Post by whatevsbro »

D9u wrote: post #84
sethbannon wrote: post #74

People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

How about the life of an American is not more valuable than an Ukrainian's?

It's somewhat disgusting to see the distinction between Americans and Others keep being made, as if spying on non-Americans was somehow less evil than spying on Americans, and so on. They're leveraging the nationalism they've programmed into your heads, to make the all-encompassing surveillance seem less ominous.

But if you believe they don't spy the fuck out of you Americans too, you're being naive. Controlling you specifically is the US government's primary objective because they're becoming a totalitarian regime. I can't imagine it being any more obvious than what's happening over there. Get out while you can.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#249

Post by elohesra »

strlen wrote: post #216
darkbot wrote: post #157

Wow, some this is some epic propaganda. Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine…

> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted. I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of "mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer). To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who attended school and a unive…

Can we please drop this 'mansplaining' bullshit? It's as offensive as referring to feelings of being othered as 'girlfeeling'. These kinds of sordid, petty, gendered derogations have no place on HN. There is literally no need for an insultingly sexist synonym for 'patronizing', when 'patronizing' already exists as a less offensive (and better understood) equivalent.

It's a shame really, because you've clearly taken the time to write a well structured and thoughtful response to the parent, and the use of that sexist slur in the first line sets a terrible tone for the rest of the comment.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#250

Post by strlen »

elohesra wrote: post #249
strlen wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted. I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of "mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer). To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who attended school and a unive…

Can we please drop this 'mansplaining' bullshit? It's as offensive as referring to feelings of being othered as 'girlfeeling'. These kinds of sordid, petty, gendered derogations have no place on HN. There is literally no need for an insultingly sexist synonym for 'patronizing', when 'patronizing' already exists as a less offensive (and better understood) equivalent. It's a shame really, because you've clearly taken t…

I see what you're you're trying to say, but as a man (who was introduced to this term by a girlfriend who caught me 'splaining myself) I personally find the term to be both hilarious and -- most importantly to -- somewhat more explicit in what it is (explaining away while lacking context) as opposed to the term patronizing. Then again English is not my native language, so perhaps I'm reading the word "patronizing" too literally here.
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