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What is really happening in Ukraine

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Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#151

Post by myth_drannon »

dmytrish wrote: post #72
myth_drannon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the descendands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms perpetrators will want an ethnically pure Ukraine. And East/South of Ukraine will not allow it. US state department is interested in the break up and pushing west ukr down the throat of EU(Germany) which really is not interested in that right now (EU is going down with PIIGS, but US needs even weaker EU with +50mil dirt poor Ukrainians with extremel…

This is not correct. I don't know any influential Ukrainian nationalists who want ethnic purity to rule them all. Even Stepan Bandera welcomed Russians and Jews (!) who aren't enemies of Ukrainian state. Please stop this crazy Nazi bias and fear mongering. Yes, there were some parts of nationalist movements during WWII who tried to use Nazi force to establish Independent Ukraine, but this union was situational, tense…

From the videos I saw and from what I tried to read on the subject, large portion of the black clad youth on the square belongs to ultra right "Svoboda" party ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#Ideol... ) and others . These are not your regular tired of corruption ukrainians but highly trained defacto militia.

I just constantly compare it with Egypt's revolution and the people on the street looked very different from Maidan . It was more popular, spontaneous uprising , in ukraine it looks extremely organized and professional. The whole things smells heavy of outside intervention, just my personal opinion

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#152

Post by gus_massa »

hackerboos wrote: post #22
stargazer-3 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue one?

More than 2 parts: http://www.clevelandleader.com/files/splitus.JPG

Why “Alaska goes to Russia” instead of “Alaska goes to Canada”?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#153

Post by levosmetalo »

stargazer-3 wrote: post #43
mitchelllc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yanukovich refused to sign EU association in November. I am wondering if the EU association was approved by most of Ukrainian through voting (or other ways), and Yanukovich disobeyed the voting results.

Association pact is a purely economical agreement that is mediated by governments only. So no, he did not violate anything. However, 42% of the population supports European integration, while only 31% wants to join the Customs Union, seen as USSR v2.0

And that is the problem here. No side has a clear majority, and any decision is going to be tough. Forcing the decision, either one, in this moment can lead only to country wide divide, since both parties feel stronly about this topic, and no compromise is possible.

Whatever is my opinion is not important, but "huge majority" of 42% shouldn't be allowed to force their decision to "only" 31% minority. I think Janukovič got it right here, not wanting to side with any side and trying to just keep it as neutral as possible. It is not a good idea to decide about such a big topic like future of the whole country and which union to join based on such a small "majority".

In the long run, the best thing is to just do nothing right now, and try to reach some kind of compromise in a deeply divided country that is equally acceptable to both sides. Whatever that compromise might be, going west, or going east, or peacefully splitting the country in two/three parts, everything is better than inevitable escalation that this leads to.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#154

Post by unethical_ban »

D9u wrote: post #84
sethbannon wrote: post #74

People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

I appreciate perspective and, when more general discussions on government abuse are taking place, comparisons to other 'first-world' countries. You're being criticized because we should be able to have discussions about other parts of the world without changing the subject.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#155

Post by euphemize »

LaGrange wrote: post #119
euphemize wrote: post #94

I wish those underlined words were links to sources or any kind of data. I haven't been following very closely and although I'm not putting in doubt what's on the slides (people on here seem to be more or less corroborating the data), there are lots of claims I'd like to read up on. Maybe a slide at the end with more info?

This is your data. Yeah, the quality of this data is rather poor. This is not a time when you can count on balanced, slow research. That will be something historians will hopefully eventually do, but meanwhile people have act on what they have. Because there is no such thing as „inaction”.

I'm not talking about a peer-reviewed report here - I'd appreciate just a link to a shitty youtube video, an audio clip of an interview, raw chat log, etc. - anything else than the claim itself. This slideshow isn't data, it's a report of "what's really going on". As I said earlier I'm not really familiar with the events, those numbers could have a few more trailing zeroes and I wouldn't know the difference until I see something that gives me an order of magnitude.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#156

Post by gkoz »

mratzloff wrote: post #32
Igor_TN wrote: post #19

I also grew up in central Ukraine and have my close relatives there. As much as I despise the current government, I must say that this "beautifully done" presentation is completely one-sided, unbalanced, and manipulates with both real and made-up facts. And, this is always non-constructive and even dangerous. The situation is much more complicated. I am really afraid that this is going closer and closer towards a civ…

> I must say that this "beautifully done" presentation is completely one-sided, unbalanced, and manipulates with both real and made-up facts. OK... How?

Is there any evidence or confirmation by the press of 'dozens of unidentified dead bodies?'

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#157

Post by darkbot »

Wow, some this is some epic propaganda.

Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine from all Russian elements". Pretty scary shit, regarding that a lot of people in Ukraine has Russian as their main language.

The media has mainly filtered this out so far, because they favor anything that destabilize Ukraina in fear of Russia.

I wish that western media would stop feed a biased and false view of what's really happening in Ukraine. Right now their a fueling a fire that could get out of hand with disastrous results.

The current situation is in dire need of de-escalation.

Here are few rare articles that's shedding some light in to the situation:

Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests...

Ukrainian far-right group claims to be co-ordinating violence in Kiev http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-far-r...

Far-right extremists staged a paramilitary funeral for shot Ukrainian protester (and the media didn't notice) http://imgur.com/a/LSvOk

EDIT: There is a lot of unfounded rumors about the government cracking down on the protestors in Ukraine on Twitter. There's also a lot of old images, videos and news that are being recirculated that does not reflect the current situation. Please, double or triple check facts and sources before retweeting any (dis)info.

EDIT2: No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#158

Post by dragonwriter »

stargazer-3 wrote: post #15
bitL wrote: post #11

Why don't you guys split Ukraine into two parts? The western part (pre-WW2's part of Poland) is pro-western, speaking Ukrainian, the eastern part is mostly inhabited by Russians that gravitate towards Moscow. Why nobody suggests this solution?

Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue one?

> Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue one?

Because the "red" and "blue" states are artifacts of winner take all election, most of the country (by states) is actually a pretty similar shade of "purple" (at a lower level, like counties, you've got intensely "red" areas in "blue" states, and vice versa), and also because the partisan leanings aren't all that consistent over time.

Was that the intended analogy for the situation in the Ukraine?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#159

Post by galenko »

rayiner wrote: post #129
galenko wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stood up for your country, then the government hurt you so bad, that you were taken to the hospital, the government then came to the hospital, took you from there, proceeded to undress and torture you. They then threw you out on a cold field to die (it's -14C there). That vs. Walking down the road, boom, a lot of me is missing, shock, I'm gonna die, ouch, ouch, dead. I know which way I'd prefer to go if it was do…

> Walking down the road, boom, a lot of me is missing, shock, I'm gonna die, ouch, ouch, dead. More like, hide out in Yemen for 10 years organizing violent jihad against the United States and protecting Al Qaeda members from the Yemeni government, then walking down the road... It's tremendously demeaning to political protestors in Ukraine to compare their situation to people like Al Awlaki.

I'm sorry to say, no one on the ground is worried about a demeaning post made on HN, I happen to know a little about what it's like, as a lot of my family lives in and around Kyiv and several of them have been lucky to get out of the protests with non life-threatening injuries only. Others we can't get hold of. Feelings are a little irrelevant right now.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#160

Post by eyeareque »

unethical_ban wrote: post #154
D9u wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

I appreciate perspective and, when more general discussions on government abuse are taking place, comparisons to other 'first-world' countries. You're being criticized because we should be able to have discussions about other parts of the world without changing the subject.

his/her point is that while it is hard to imagine, (sadly) this type of brutality/murder is carried out by our (assumed US) government as well.
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