What is really happening in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#81

Post by yxhuvud » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #12

higherpurpose wrote: post #2

Why do some keep calling it a civil war instead of a revolution? Sure, the government has hired/collaborated with non-government people to cause trouble/beat up the protesters, but which tyrannical government doesn't do that during a revolution? They all do it.

Because the descendands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms perpetrators will want an ethnically pure Ukraine. And East/South of Ukraine will not allow it. US state department is interested in the break up and pushing west ukr down the throat of EU(Germany) which really is not interested in that right now (EU is going down with PIIGS, but US needs even weaker EU with +50mil dirt poor Ukrainians with extremel…

I don't understand why you think giving EU even more of an advantage in population will make EU weaker.

In the long term, that will absolutely not be the case. They might be poor now, but will get richer as time goes.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#82

Post by wavefunction » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:05 PM UTC

ynniv wrote: post #65

stargazer-3 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue one?

There are more realistic borders along which the United States might reorganize: http://rocs.hu-berlin.de/projects/borders

Only realistic if you don't actually live in the United States. These European projections on how the US could devolve are pretty funny though, and say more about European bias than anything else.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#83

Post by viraptor » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #57

arca_vorago wrote: post #21

That's actually a very well done summary. I have an acquaintance that is Ukrainian and I have been asking her about it. Pretty much what happened so far can be summed up as "The leadership betrayed the Ukrainian people to Russia under pressure from Putin" and both of generally agree that it's too late now to stop, and that the protesters have to be at least partially successful or else it is likely there will be more…

My guess is that, since Russia is no longer a top global power, this area is not a priority for the US now. Georgia lies in more strategically important (lots of oil around) and fragile region, while saving the Ukraine would be mostly a favor for Poland and rest of EU (not to mention Ukrainians).

For many polish people still remembering the war times, effectively sharing a border with Russia again would be a big issue. I haven't been following news in pl for a while, but I'm sure there's a lot of pro-eu-ukraine sentiment present. There was definitely a lot of it during the orange revolution some time ago.

Edit: just checked, is not hard to find neutral articles, but all the others are pretty much against the current government

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#84

Post by D9u » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

sethbannon wrote: post #74

People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#85

Post by choonkeymoonkey » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

egao1980 wrote: post #76

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2... Nazis are all over the barricades. Ukrainian riot police is more than capable of doing European G8 style riot control but is ordered not to do so because of the huge pressure from EU and USA. Finally, imagine Ukrainian or Russian officials going into crowds of Occupy Wall Street or Paris protests urging to overthrow the government and giving their suppor…

Could you please explain, how you exactly base your argument on the link above? Please, show us your reasoning.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#86

Post by ommunist » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

OK, lets also discuss Iran, Syria, Israel vs Palestine and all other bloody conflicts here. Is this political forum or what? With regard to Ukraine, I have a message to "protesters". Lads, instead of getting 30EUR per day of "protest", do some real coding for the benefit of your society.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#87

Post by Demiurge » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

akjj wrote: post #64

Demiurge wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how would you? if a demonstration turning violent is "Civil War", they should take notice at the G8.

Protestors weren't taking over government buildings during G8 conferences.

That's a good point, but they would have, if they had lots of small unguarded municipal buildings. Not to be sarcastic, this is still just a few thousands of extremists being destructive. A Civil War is when you have armed forces on both sides, a big population willing to take arms. Most adult people want this to stop and get back to work.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#88

Post by dmytrish » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #67

What is really happening in Ukraine is that both sides of this conflict (pro-Euro and against) are absolutely corrupt and the people know it. The tragedy of this is that no one from the government or opposition represents the will of the people. The population of Ukraine really just wants an end to corruption and a better national identity, euro-integration was just the last straw, but not fundamental to this crisis…

Yes, you're right that Ukrainian opposition is still a part of the corrupt system, but there's a hope that Klichko (who lived in Europe for a long time) is a fresh blood here. Also, current Yanukovych's and Party of Regions corruption is outrageous even for Ukraine. This is the true reason of the revolution.

People fight with the state sincerely, I don't see much sane people who are sincerely supporting Yanukovych now.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#89

Post by thinkpad20 » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

Igor_TN wrote: post #19

I also grew up in central Ukraine and have my close relatives there. As much as I despise the current government, I must say that this "beautifully done" presentation is completely one-sided, unbalanced, and manipulates with both real and made-up facts. And, this is always non-constructive and even dangerous. The situation is much more complicated. I am really afraid that this is going closer and closer towards a civ…

It's very obvious that the presentation is one-sided, and should be taken with a grain of salt. However, if you claim that it makes things up, you should point those things out specifically.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#90

Post by yazmeya » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

randomafrican wrote: post #46

mtrimpe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much about whether they speak Russian or not. Eastern Ukraine is just generally closer ideologically to Russia whereas Western Ukraine prefers to maintain close ties with Europe. You can see that reflected quite clearly in the split between west and east in where the protests are. In general the president is supported by the eastern part of Ukraine, but is also a convicted criminal who sent the previous p…

>who sent the previous president to jail on trumped up charges Previous Prime Minister. And I'm not 100% sure the charges are totally trumped up. Not that it changes anything.

Even if the charges aren't all trumped up, Tymoshenko was singled out for prosecution for her politics, without a doubt. With corruption as rampant as it is, there's a criminal case waiting to be made against practically anyone in a position of power in Ukraine.