What is really happening in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#201

Post by malkung » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

dmytrish wrote: post #179

myth_drannon wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the videos I saw and from what I tried to read on the subject, large portion of the black clad youth on the square belongs to ultra right "Svoboda" party ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#Ideol... ) and others . These are not your regular tired of corruption ukrainians but highly trained defacto militia. I just constantly compare it with Egypt's revolution and the people on the street look…

Svoboda had to give up much of its "radical" appeal to gain real popularity. Now its target audience is not marginal skinheads and radical nationalists, Svoboda has attracted a lot, a lot of people (10% of votes in Ukraine in 2012) who don't want to vote for the old corrupted opposition (Tymoshenko's "Batkivshchyna", Socialist Party of Ukraine, Green Movement, etc) and don't trust their hollow "patriotism". Yes, you…

Constantly burning car tires, large-scale production of Molotov cocktails, great skills at building barricades, lots of people wearing body protection ... This does not look like self-organization at all. Surely, someone has been seriously training for this.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#202

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

ash wrote: post #180

tptacek wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn't indulge these unproductive subthreads, but I have mild nerd autism and am easily trolled. It's my experience that people who bring up Anwar al-Awlaki and his son --- particularly when using the term "US citizen" in the same breath --- rarely know anything specific about what actually happened. To start with, al-Awlaki and his son Abdulrahman weren't killed together, but at separate times. Abdulrahman was…

What about (4) trial in absentia? Is it possible under US laws?

Al Awlaki was tried in abstentia by Yemen in 2010. It is often suggested that a trial in abstentia by the U.S. would have been preferable for Al Awlaki, but to me, it's even scarier than the drone strike.

Legally, there are essentially two regimes: the domestic criminal regime, and the military regime. If you fall into the former bucket, there are lots of protections. Trials in abstentia, for example, are illegal and invalid: a defendant has a Constitutional right to appear at his trial. If you fall into the latter bucket, there aren't really any protections. When the U.S. fought Germany in WWII, German soldiers couldn't claim legal protections under U.S. laws.

Putting Al Awlaki into the "military aggressor" bucket is problematic, because of his citizenship, but not totally unprecedented. In World War II, it is almost certain that American citizens were killed by American forces while fighting for Hitler. Indeed, at least a dozen American POWs were killed in the Hiroshima bombing. It's morally troubling, but at least its encapsulated: you're in a war zone, a place without functioning rule of law, and pose a military threat, you're fair game.

Putting Al Awlaki into the domestic criminal regime, then trying him in abstentia, is REALLY problematic. If a terrorist is just a "really bad criminal," instead of a foreign soldier, then in what other cases of "really bad criminals" do Constitutional protections go out the window? It's not encapsulated, it's hard to cabin to the specific facts, and it amounts to an even bigger erosion of rights.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#203

Post by solyanyk » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

desireco42 wrote: post #164

I see this attempts to drum up support for protesters in Ukraine, even here on HackerNews and this is not the place. Also I personally don't want to support civil way anywhere, which is what they are trying to create. One look at Syria should be enough for normal people to try to seek better solution. So called protestors are no angels.

I'm sorry that there is not enough angelic protesters in Ukraine to conform to your high standards. Not only that, but apparently Ukrainians don't even qualify as "normal people", since no matter how many times we look at Syria it doesn't become obvious that the "better solution" is to yield to the government and abandon our constitutional rights.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#204

Post by Aoyagi » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

solyanyk wrote: post #124

Aoyagi wrote: post #68

Not another piece of news that makes the protesters seem like pure white knights that peacefully protest... Can we have some news about Ukraine that isn't totally biased, please?

You can find tons of alternative views, with little effort. But let me save you some time and present the brief summary here: the protesters are, in fact, not all white knights. Moreover, it is by now rather clear that they don't all smell like roses and talk like fairies. More than one breach of gentlemanly conduct have been reported by independent sources, and I think it is now safe to say that each and every of th…

Heh, thanks, but I already knew that. That's why I'm disappointed to see so biased 'article' at the top of HN today. As for the last line: It matters because most popular media I've seen portray them as peaceful activists that are beaten by vicious police commandos armed with assault rifles and grenades. And I'll resent violence no matter who it comes from, but I guess it's the easiest way to get attention, huh? Not paying taxes could take a while to get through. It's the bias what annoys me. What's happening there is another thing (though there is a nice video of it http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1390672028 ). If both sides weren't corrupt as hell, they'd make open transparent referendum for the whole thing and be done with it.

Edit: The top comment right now (people being kidnapped) is a nice example. There is no proof of that as far as I know and people already talk about it as facts...

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#205

Post by at-fates-hands » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

D9u wrote: post #84

sethbannon wrote: post #74

People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

>>> How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen

I'd use the term "citizen" pretty loosely here. Considering his passport was revoked six month before he was assassinated and the fact he had taken up arms against the US by fighting in another country's army, I'd say he wasn't exactly a "citizen".

It's only murky because the US government didn't officially revoke his citizenship.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#206

Post by shitgoose » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

gus_massa wrote: post #152

hackerboos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than 2 parts: http://www.clevelandleader.com/files/splitus.JPG

Why “Alaska goes to Russia” instead of “Alaska goes to Canada”?

Alaska used to be Russian territory, sold to US in 1867.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#207

Post by slig » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

lhgaghl wrote: post #195

slig wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace the "/watch?=$id" with "/v/$id" in the URL and it should work.

I tried and it just asks me to download a .SWF file: www.youtube.com/v/z0zD3pOG-Tk

I tried your link and it works as expected. Chrome 33 on OS X.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#208

Post by vdaniuk » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

shitgoose wrote: post #186

vdaniuk wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian speaking Ukrainian, participating in protests, living in Kiev that considers this quote by Albert Einstein to be very true "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind", you are so full of shit.

Would you dare to go to Lvov these days and speak Russian there, your native language?

Certainly yes. There is no or very little aggression towards Russian speakers in Lvov.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#209

Post by sgift » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:35 PM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #182

darkbot wrote: post #157

Wow, some this is some epic propaganda. Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine…

Here are a couple of links that support your opinion. Unfortunately most people here might not be aware that western media is quite biased. http://orientalreview.org/2014/01/24/coup-in-western-ukraine... http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/01/libya-syria-and-now-ukr... Dear fellow hackers, media is "The Matrix" regardless it's from democratic western countries , or Russia, China, North Korea. Ironically most western pe…

Every media, as long as media is made by humans, will be biased. The only choice you have is to search the bias you know, so you can use your brain to fix the information you were fed.

Example: Every time I read something about left/right wing politics on HN I try to check if the commenter is from the US. If he is I apply a "mental filter" which allows me (as an European) to better understand him (what people from the US consider "central" falls under "right wing" policies in my mind). Without that filter political discussions on HN would be pretty useless for me (actually that was the case until I had read enough to understand this particular bias).

You have to do this with every source, otherwise you will always be fooled. Back to the current case: I am not able to distill your sources, because I have no idea what their bias is. At least with most western media I know that they usually tend do favor the "non-government" side in conflicts of people vs government.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#210

Post by ynniv » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

gus_massa wrote: post #176

ynniv wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more realistic borders along which the United States might reorganize: http://rocs.hu-berlin.de/projects/borders

This map was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5566582 (70 points, 248 days ago, 41 comments). I’ll quote the second comment by julespitt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5566911 > Ahem... http://www.federalreserve.gov/otherfrb.htm . > Cash is managed through the regional branches of the Federal Reserve, and while there are some boundaries on that map that don't line up, it mostly seems to be…

There is certainly influence, but the Federal Reserve regions map doesn't align especially well with the study map.

As a New Yorker from Connecticut, the gigantic barrier between New York and New England would have to be nearly completely explained by the Fed.

Having also grown up in Connecticut, New Englanders aren't as likely to go to New York as one would expect from the proximity. Young folks, especially in Connecticut, tend to go back and forth, but people in the city only tend to visit New England in the fall, and people in New England only visit the city on special occasion. In fact, the line between New York and New England is the only place I have ever seen a road sign for "New England" and not an actual state name. It is a very culturally polarized region where city folk like the city, country folk the country. There's also very little in up-state New York (which is mostly park land) that would cause lots of travel there from Vermont... If you're from the area it isn't as weird as it looks on a map.

If the Federal Reserve regions were actually causing the currency movements, why do regions 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12, and Louisiana not line up?