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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#201

Post by dmytrish »

kushti wrote: post #93
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #7

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

Well, it's very popular in Ukraine and kinda nazist point of view, considering Russia as root of all problems. That's why so many nazists amongst "protestors" and why we can have nazi state in Europe if they will take power.

"The root of _all_ problems" is an emotional exaggeration (often used by Russians themselves to assess other peoples' opinion). But when you try to fought this bias, it is still amusing _how many_ problems are caused by this so-close, restless, authoritarian and violent neighbor with ambitions of creating the Russian Civilization.

So, I disapprove that point of view, but I have to admit that such neighborhood is a burden for anyone and a source of permanent headache (Pridnestrovye cut off from Moldova, Southern Abhazia separated from Georgia with Russian help, escalation of Armenian-Azerbaijan conflicts, etc). Moreover, Russia in its current Putinist form is a burden for its own people.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#202

Post by tomh »

ItendToDisagree wrote: post #175
nikolak wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, I didn't mean to imply that there have been deadly casualties, but that's the goal of throwing Molotov cocktail on someone. Saying that the protesters aren't using violence is wrong. None have been killed because they have firefighters and fire extinguishers with them, doesn't change the fact that throwing Molotov cocktail into someone's face can, and probably will, kill them.

I don't think I've ever heard of a Molotov being directed at a person because that isn't what they are useful for. Not to mention the fact that unless you were to hit a shield/helmet you likely wouldn't break the bottle and ignite the contents. They have been primarily used for disabling vehicles and making some ground impassable. It doesn't appear that the wiki even references their use against individuals so much a…

It looks like they are being used more against Berkut holding shields; once they break against those, the flaming contents then flow over the shields' owners.

Much like in this short video (you will have to excuse the gallows-humor soundtrack, it's not my intention to make light of the scenario): http://coub.com/view/hgsj

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#203

Post by solyanyk »

The comments here are truly amazing!

People who never had to protect their constitutional freedoms or human rights against a real, brutal, force, who were simply lucky enough to be born in places with long and established traditions of democracy (something their ancestors actually did have to struggle for), smugly judging people who risk their lives standing up for their values in place where human rights meant nothing for centuries. "OMG people are so easy to manipulate", "This smoke is damn unpleasant, is it really necessary?", "Can't they just talk to each other like normal people"...

Unbelievable.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#204

Post by abcd_f »

bluekeybox wrote: post #135
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

> They want Ukraine to join European union No. If you were more familiar with the situation, you would understand that EU is only being used as a token signal (not goal) of the direction the country should be heading in. What the protesters really want is for the current government to resign and not to sign a (undoubtedly corrupt) deal with Russia that would effectively infringe on Ukraine's economic and political so…

The problem of course is that Ukraine has no economic sovereignty already.

It is utterly dependent on Russian gas for its energy needs. Even if Yanukovich steps down, next leader will have the exact same problem - where to get gas to power the country and you can bet your last grivna that the price of gas will go ballistic if Ukraine is to do something, anything to jeopardize the security of Russian borders. For example, align themselves with the EU. They are in a check-mate :-|

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#205

Post by tomh »

jwr wrote: post #109

Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being used to what the mainstream media feeds us? This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective -- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.

Keep in mind that it is a combination of the last few posts he's made in Russian, each one trying to deliver an impartial message of what is going on in Kiev.

His previous post was even entitled, "Maidan through the eyes of the police and Berkut" so he is trying to be as impartial as he can: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984379.html

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#206

Post by TeMPOraL »

SEMW wrote: post #193
TeMPOraL wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields. Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for eith…

> whatever anti-EU crap The Guardian produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislation... The point is a good one, but you may be confusing the Guardian with e.g. the Daily Mail or the Telegraph, both right-wing anti-EU papers. The Guardian is centre-left, and neutral/pro-EU.

Updated. I'm not 100% sure now if what I read was in The Guardian or another British paper; I tend to confuse them sometimes. I stand by the rest of my comment though.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#207

Post by air »

thesz wrote: post #196
emilis_info wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the rem…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups is closest to the demographic graph of Latvia, for example. It stopped to grow right after Russian occupation ended. Take a closer look to the conditions in which most people live from where you have come. Or at their prospects in life. Or prospects of economy. I think that will change your opinion slightly.

Russians moving into the country during Soviet rule and moving out after it seem to explain the graph pretty well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Russians :

The number of Russians in Latvia increased significantly during the Soviet occupation of Latvia when the size of the community grew from 10.5% of the total population in 1935 (206,499) to 34.0% in 1989 (905,515). It started to decrease in size again after Latvia re-gained independence in 1991 falling to 26.9% (557,119) in 2011.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#208

Post by wslh »

jccooper wrote: post #137
hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals." What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

More information here http://mobile.news.com.au/world/what-you-need-to-know-about-...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#209

Post by mantas »

adobriyan wrote: post #200
mantas wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportuniti…

> If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. Or there aren't any real jobs left because EU destroyed real production left from USSR.

USSR times factories were ineffective as hell. They went under simply because they couldn't stay afloat. Outdated technologies, R&D focused on specific parts of weapons, ineffective management, shitty environmental policies... USSR times factories were a complete disaster. All of that closed years before EU. And thanks god they closed. Now I can swim in a lake next to my hometown without worrying about allergies. You know how we could tell what colour carpets the factory is making that day? By looking at a lake next to it :)

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#210

Post by dmytrish »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #192
dmytrish wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the pictures don't prove much, here you have to trust the author, he's spending quite some time in the heart of the events. Pretty girls can still be crazy nationalists, that's true. The point is that if some crazy form of nationalism has taken so wide-spread popularity in Ukraine, it would be well-known abroad already. That's not the case, it seems that the only foreign force concerned with Ukrainian nationalis…

I didn't mean to imply anything about the protesters one way or another. My point was purely about the reporting itself and perhaps about citizen journalism in general. As a citizen of the European Union I am very much in favor of forming closer ties with Ukraine and eventually welcoming them into the EU. But of course that can only happen if a solid majority of Ukrainians actually wants it. I'm unclear about whether…

> a solid majority of Ukrainians actually want it - you're right, it's a tough question. European integration support is at least 50% of the population; just before Yanukovych decided not to sign the association agreement it was more than 70% according to polls. People also pay attention to the EU position: if it is welcoming and constructive, EU gains ~20% popularity. The decision of Yanukovych was a shock to a large part of the country.

Also I have to admit that for many people Europe is a symbol of lawful and wealthy life among rich and friendly cultures. But symbols often fail when confronted with harsh reality. At the same time there's a considerable (more well-to-do) part of population who actually saw Europe and know what they want.

But Maidan is now not just about EU, though EU support is relatively high (100 000 people was at the only true _Euro_maidan in Kiev on November 24). Our burning need is to get rid of the current regime. Four years of Yanukovych's rule have been time of creeping, steady and all-embracing corruption: economic, business, political, juridical, legislative, social. Nobody thought that this would go so far, even people who voted for Yanukovych.

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