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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#191

Post by adobriyan »

_random_ wrote: post #183
mantas wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are…

And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?

Tssk, tssk.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#192

Post by fauigerzigerk »

dmytrish wrote: post #158
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certainly great pictures, but depth and nuance? You can't see people's ideology and in their faces. Pretty girls can still be crazy nationalists and fascists. Does age and gender really prove anything as the author seems to suggest? He also says that the crowd is well organized. Who organizes them if they are so diverse? Who are the people who deny others access to some areas as he reports? There are very f…

Yes, the pictures don't prove much, here you have to trust the author, he's spending quite some time in the heart of the events. Pretty girls can still be crazy nationalists, that's true. The point is that if some crazy form of nationalism has taken so wide-spread popularity in Ukraine, it would be well-known abroad already. That's not the case, it seems that the only foreign force concerned with Ukrainian nationalis…

I didn't mean to imply anything about the protesters one way or another. My point was purely about the reporting itself and perhaps about citizen journalism in general.

As a citizen of the European Union I am very much in favor of forming closer ties with Ukraine and eventually welcoming them into the EU.

But of course that can only happen if a solid majority of Ukrainians actually wants it. I'm unclear about whether or not they do and hence whether or not the protesters represent the will of the people.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#193

Post by SEMW »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #165
emilis_info wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the rem…

Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields. Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for eith…

> whatever anti-EU crap The Guardian produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislation...

The point is a good one, but you may be confusing the Guardian with e.g. the Daily Mail or the Telegraph, both right-wing anti-EU papers. The Guardian is centre-left, and neutral/pro-EU.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#194

Post by Crito »

emilis_info wrote: post #123
Mikeb85 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take my word for it. Just realize that there are 2 sides, and 2 viewpoints to read... All the media coverage has been very one sided...

Extending your argument about 2 viewpoints: lets go listen to what astrologers have to say about criticism from astronomers...

Exactly. This idea that for every issue there must be two valid viewpoints each with good points is fallacious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#195

Post by mantas »

_random_ wrote: post #183
mantas wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are…

And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?

If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open.

To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportunities in developing market.

By the way, it's not only ex-ussrs emigrating. I heard more and more Spaniards and Greeks come to Norway to earn more :)

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#196

Post by thesz »

emilis_info wrote: post #145
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the rem…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups is closest to the demographic graph of Latvia, for example. It stopped to grow right after Russian occupation ended.

Take a closer look to the conditions in which most people live from where you have come. Or at their prospects in life. Or prospects of economy. I think that will change your opinion slightly.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#197

Post by Someone »

hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

Low tech? Partly, but its success, I think, will depend heavily on the night tech of the mobile phone and the internet. If those weren't available, those in power could probably have ended this days ago. And [nitpick], I don't think they had lasers in the Peloponnesian war.

Also: what's the rationale for having manholes locked from the inside in a government sector? I can see a reason for locking manhole covers to prevent people from getting out of them to attack nearby targets, but if the lock is on the inside, that wouldn't help, would it?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#199

Post by tomh »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #120
higherpurpose wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? I don't think they can keep them under control much longer.

> They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? The Rose Revolution gang were ousted in the most recent elections in Georgia...

And former Georgian President Saakashvili is coming to the USA to teach, as a Senior Statesman: http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2013/12/20/Presiden...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#200

Post by adobriyan »

mantas wrote: post #195
_random_ wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?

If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open. To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportuniti…

> If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open.

Or there aren't any real jobs left because EU destroyed real production left from USSR.

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