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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#161

Post by microtonal »

jwr wrote: post #109

Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being used to what the mainstream media feeds us? This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective -- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.

It's not that different how the media in my home country (The Netherlands, e.g. 'Nieuwsuur') have been reporting in Syria and are starting to report Ukraine - in the trenches, literally on the fronts, following and interviewing people on both sides.

Of course, everyone already knew that CNN and others are garbage. If the reality doesn't align with their great capitalism fairytale where Bono is the pinnacle of humanism, they will make it fit ;).

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#162

Post by znowi »

Ukraine has been historically divided into pro-West Ukraine in the west and pro-Russia Ukraine in the east. I think the only peaceful resolution to this conflict is having two independent states.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#163

Post by radicalbyte »

mantas wrote: post #138
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are…

I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#164

Post by dmytrish »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Do you want to assert that Bulgaria, Slovakia would be better in Russian sphere of influence?

Do you suggest that benzopirenes are more harmful than a lot of tear gas being used against protesters?

Kiev is living its own life, re-read the Zyalt's post if you haven't read this yet.

Protesters are stupid? Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#165

Post by TeMPOraL »

emilis_info wrote: post #145
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the rem…

Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields.

Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for either what particular neighbour countries did to us before we were even a member state, or they blame EU for whatever anti-EU crap some British newspapers produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislations like the one with juices or water, the news spreads and people here believe it. Seen this many times).

TL;DR: this side of the world, joining EU is a Good Thing for the people.

EDIT: a reply made me realize that I'm not sure if it was The Guardian or another British paper that spins anti-EU nonsense, so I removed the name.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#166

Post by dmytrish »

audriusko wrote: post #143
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.

thesz is from Moscow, it's how it looks from there.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#167

Post by TeMPOraL »

dmytrish wrote: post #164
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Do you want to assert that Bulgaria, Slovakia would be better in Russian sphere of influence? Do you suggest that benzopirenes are more harmful than a lot of tear gas being used against protesters? Kiev is living its own life, re-read the Zyalt's post if you haven't read this yet. Protesters are stupid? Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits a…

> Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?

Reminds me of one country that tends to drone strike everything that they can't spy on.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#168

Post by yxhuvud »

kushti wrote: post #93
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #7

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

Well, it's very popular in Ukraine and kinda nazist point of view, considering Russia as root of all problems. That's why so many nazists amongst "protestors" and why we can have nazi state in Europe if they will take power.

Well, we already have fascists in Hungary.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#169

Post by dmytrish »

nikolak wrote: post #155
dmytrish wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None have been killed with a Molotov cocktail so far.

True, I didn't mean to imply that there have been deadly casualties, but that's the goal of throwing Molotov cocktail on someone. Saying that the protesters aren't using violence is wrong. None have been killed because they have firefighters and fire extinguishers with them, doesn't change the fact that throwing Molotov cocktail into someone's face can, and probably will, kill them.

We've had two months of peaceful protest at Maidan being ignored politically and assaulted with police. Many activists have been beaten, some of them are dead.

After two month of Yanukovych plainly ignoring protests and our opposition ("leaders" of the protest) being impotent, protesters were desperate, so the more radical part started to use the violence against police at Hrushevskogo street. Maidan is still a place for peaceful protest.

I don't want to excuse our radical protesters, but the situation was grieve and radical protests succeeded at Yanukovych admitting that he has to do something.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#170

Post by fromdoon »

Here in India, we have also witnessed a series of street agitations against a corrupt political system that runs most of the country.

Though, It hasn't crossed the line, yet, and turned into violent protests like Kiev.

There are many things which have happened in the 21st century, but the rise of frequent civilian protests around the world is certainly the one that stands out. I am not a student of history, but this is the first time I am becoming more and more aware of such restlessness in the citizens of the world.

I guess, this is a kind of cycle. Political systems rise, become stable and stay for some time and then slowly the rot begins, which when reaches a certain tipping point, forces the masses to rise to make correction and then the cycles repeats.

The only difference being the timeline of the cycle, which seems to differ from region to region and from country to country.

I am sure there must be some literature/research dedicated to this phenomena.

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