Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#371

Post by xavi » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:03 PM UTC

drone wrote: post #335

xavi wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand any of your arguments! How is a single tax on land value taxing on income? Can you put an example? I understand the tax would be on the value of the land, not on its size (from your comment I'm not sure if you understood in the same way). The tax only "forces" you to sell assets/property that you don't need or use to generate your income. I don't think this is bad. I don't see how taxing (land) pro…

An increase in the marketable value of the land is considered an increase in income in such a model. (In fact, it -is- treated as an increase in income, just like the federal government in the US treat the distribution of restricted stock [which generally cannot be sold] as income.) Your statement about productivity might hold true, if it weren't for the fact that (at least here in my state), the tax value of land is…

If the tax is also based on improvements and use of the land, then it's not "Georgist": "Many municipal governments of the USA depend on real property tax as their main source of revenue, although such taxes are not "Georgist" as they generally include the value of buildings and other improvements, one exception being the town of Altoona, Pennsylvania, which only taxes land value." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism#Communities

Actually, I think Georgism is designed to make it difficult to get money by renting property (unless you provide additional value)! This would help to better distribution of wealth because it would make it difficult for rich people to get richer by just buying and selling (or renting in this case) without providing additional value.

BTW, what's your state?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#372

Post by svantana » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:05 PM UTC

konstruktor wrote: post #105

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…

> the job market would probably flip: You would have to pay people very well for doing unpleasant work, and not so well for fulfilling jobs.

Isn't that already the case? Boring jobs = accountant, lawyer, engineer (to most people), fun jobs = musician, actor, artist (again, to most people, or at least teenagers). I shudder to think what the median income is for those fun jobs.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#373

Post by DerpDerpDerp » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #365

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

A lot of the necessary boring work could also be done by people who want additional disposable income. They just wouldn't be forced to work full time, instead opting to only work as many hours as is necessary to meet their disposable income needs. On the other hand, I'm wondering what a minimum livable wage does pricewise and scarcity-wise for all goods and services that those on a minimum livable wage earn. There wo…

> This would apply to pretty much all basic expenses except housing, which would largely only go up because you can't make more land in desirable places.

You can build up, which most places don't do. What we'd see is fewer houses and more condos/apartments.

> You may still have to worry about losing your job, because the minimum livable wage wouldn't cover your rent or mortgage.

Yes, but it transitions the effects of this loss to "move somewhere else and have fewer luxuries" not "have no home and be unable to eat", which I think is an improvement.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#374

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:12 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #369

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>these models are notorious for not working out well. I guess you know because you've seen it tried so many times? Here is a fact for your non-economist economic model. Automation is displacing labor. And, here is a prediction: Automation will continue to displace labor until most menial labor tasks are gone.

You forgot the direct causal effect this has on demand. The more labor is displaced, the more demand will need to come from somewhere else, and that is a massive problem to have. When automation increased productivity during most of the last century, demand grew and economy prospered. When towards the end of the century, automation started to cannibalize jobs, we started to rely more and more on debt. And that's wher…

>You forgot the direct causal effect this has on demand. The more labor is displaced, the more demand will need to come from somewhere else, and that is a massive problem to have.

Demand for labor, or demand for products?

>When automation increased productivity during most of the last century, demand grew and economy prospered. When towards the end of the century, automation started to cannibalize jobs, we started to rely more and more on debt. And that's where we are today.

You're hinting around the most important distinction between then and now (or the not too distant future). For many goods, we are entering a time where we can produce more than we are able to consume. We can continue creating artificial scarcity to keep people employed, which kind of makes labor the product. Or we can relax our ideas about how to distribute the proceeds of peoples' collective efforts. I don't think that it is tenable to continue with the artificial scarcity model because automation is just too attractive to industry.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#375

Post by brit155 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:13 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #263

hackinthebochs wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, are you accusing the idea that multiculturalism doesn't work as being racist? There is ample evidence that it in fact doesn't work: that an underclass is inevitable and that status applied to an entire culture is immensely damaging.

The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…

When did 1/3 of Italian or Asian immigrant students support killing in the name of Catholicism or Buddhism?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#376

Post by xavi » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

malyk wrote: post #359

xavi wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frickin' everyone? I look at the evolution of unemployment rates ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unemployment_rate_United_s... ) and I see a clear trend that I think is not going to change. Besides, among the employed, I'm quite sure that an important percentage of people don't like their jobs. And, to answer your question, I would probably quit a "cushy" programming job to pursue my projects and interests.

Isn't that exactly what proponents of basic income hope will happen? People will be free from the shackles of employment and will be free to pursue their own ideas and interests?

Yes, it seems so. However, my argument is not that basic income would not have desirable consequences, but that I think it's not sustainable.

I try to look at the whole system, and I don't see how it would work.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#377

Post by theorique » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:24 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #263

hackinthebochs wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, are you accusing the idea that multiculturalism doesn't work as being racist? There is ample evidence that it in fact doesn't work: that an underclass is inevitable and that status applied to an entire culture is immensely damaging.

The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…

On the flip side, loudmouth, self-appointed, "spokesmen" of the Asian Muslim community such as Mehdi Hasan or Anjem Choudhry really don't help matters very much.

Politicised Islam in Britain - and the associated terrorist actions that result - has done a great deal to generate support for parties and groups such as BNP, UKIP, or EDL.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#378

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #266

rayiner wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually. > many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.

[deleted]

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#379

Post by summerdown2 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

danbmil99 wrote: post #336

summerdown2 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A system like this will need to be very well monitored, it can help immensely to those in need, but if done unconditionally it will certainly encourage laziness in a sector of the society. Thought experiment: If the overall effect of basic income is to make things better overall(1), does it really matter if some people become lazy? (1) Through whatever metric you want to measure. ... To give some background, my que…

This assumes a static proportion of "lazy" or unethical people. I think the counterargument is one of moral hazard: if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy. There is also a motivational issue -- many people (I suspect) will find it harder to work for a living if they sense that their hard-earned money is taxed and given away to freeloaders.

> if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy.

Potentially, but I'm still interested in my thought experiment. What if

a) It gets better, using some metric of better.

     at the same time as:

b) Some people are lazy.

Even if b) is a larger number than at present, does that matter? It doesn't to me, but my intuition is that there are some people who will not tolerate others being lazy even if that's the optimum solution.

I suspect that Basic Income will be unpopular in some quarters, even if the empirical results are that it works.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#380

Post by jordiae » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 6:37 PM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

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