Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#261

Post by rglullis » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 1:43 PM UTC

kijin wrote: post #221

rglullis wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that was your intention, but your comment smacks of a defense of consumerism. I may be against the idea of basic income exactly because it would allow people to feed a system that does not but expect them to be consumers of whatever crap society produces. Also, see http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/11/hipsters_on_food_stam...

Some would say that basic income helps defeat consumerism, because people who really want to spend their time creating stuff can now do so without having to worry about putting food on the table.

Have you seen the comment I was replying to? I don't feel like discussing what "some people" would say when you have someone right in front of me showing that even hackers (the one class that has everything in their hands to build whatever they want for free!) are inclined to think that having more money means "hellz yeah, now I can buy more stuff!".

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#262

Post by rayiner » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 1:48 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #249

_random_ wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, you just described UK. Multiculturalism doesn't work - it has been tested here.

I wish we could deport racists.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining distinctive, and multiculturalism as expressed in the U.K., where e.g. many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws.

I would never say people of a minority culture/ethnicity can't be racist against that culture, but I think we often have a more nuanced view of "racism" than people of the majority culture/ethnicity. My family immigrated to the U.S. from Bangladesh, and integration is an important issue to us. We see a lot of immigrants who refuse to assimilate, and we believe that it's detrimental both for them, because it makes it harder for them to take advantage of all of the opportunities of American society, and detrimental to the people who live around them, because there presence creates cultural schisms within communities that cannot be reconciled. I don't think there is anything "racist" about pointing these basic facts out.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#263

Post by alextingle » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 1:52 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #258

alextingle wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport racists.

I'm confused, are you accusing the idea that multiculturalism doesn't work as being racist? There is ample evidence that it in fact doesn't work: that an underclass is inevitable and that status applied to an entire culture is immensely damaging.

The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives".

Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a tiny, shabby fringe. These days, I'm dismayed to admit that the BNP and their UKIP mini-me's have managed to spread their filthy ideas much more widely.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#264

Post by mattchew » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 1:52 PM UTC

wavesounds wrote: post #31

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate venue for chanting political slogans.

I stated a 100% true fact that is a direct comparison to the article in question. It's sad people would try to silence facts by dismissing them as 'political slogans'

You did some sloganeering that was at best tangentially related to the article in question. The resulting discussion? Just what you'd expect.

Par for the HN course these days, but no need to pat yourself on the back over it.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#265

Post by Suncho » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

eatitraw wrote: post #176

There are so many people excited about all these "equality" bills, and nobody criticizes it. So I'll just leave it there: http://paulgraham.com/inequality.html

Paul Graham misses the mark here. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to try to get rid of income inequality and that income inequality can actually be a positive driving force in the economy. However, it's possible to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, thereby making the poor richer, without preventing income inequality from continuing to increase. Just do it at a low enough rate. And it's not a good use of resources to "teach a man to fish" when "fishing" can be automated or there's not a specific demand for "fishermen."

The jobs of tomorrow are becoming less and less definable in terms of the jobs and skills of today. We should be giving people incentive to stay out of the labor force and to spend their time how they want. Some people will stay home and play Xbox. Some will come up with awesome new jobs. Some will do amazing work that benefits humanity and which nobody would have ever thought to pay them for. But it's important to remember that keeping the lazy people out of the labor force decreases the level of incompetence in the labor force. Those Xbox people are staying out of the way of folks who actually want to get things done. Sometimes the best way to contribute to the economy is to stay out of it.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#266

Post by alextingle » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #262

alextingle wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport racists.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually.

> many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws

That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#267

Post by jes » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

Are the taxes to pay for this voluntary in Switzerland?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#268

Post by Suncho » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:03 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #259

femto wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which begs the question: in a highly automated country, should receiving an income for free, or almost free, be considered the norm? I'd imagine that in the absence of communal action, the tendency would be for wealth to accumulate to the minority that own the automatons. Either the ownership of the automatons would have to be distributed or people would need to receive a "free" income. The latter seems like a gilded…

Free basic income would be inevitable in a highly automated country. The owners of the robots would essentially corner the market on labor. The entire premise of our current social system would be thrown into chaos. Large swaths of the population are not going to starve quietly. We only need to look at history here: once income inequality becomes severe enough and it can't be hidden anymore, redistribution happens. I…

I wish we could be better at separating the notions of "income inequality" and "not enough income." The first is necessary for a functioning economy and the second is... bad.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#269

Post by lettergram » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

Economically speaking this is not going to help anyone... If every person makes a specific lower bound limit all that happens is prices are increased. It probably takes a year or so for the full effect to be felt, at which point there is the choice to either raise it to combat the prices or set limits on how much stuff will cost. Either option sets a limit goods or wages in your country that will not be beneficial.

Not to mention, in combination with the other stuff being passed by the swiss there country can have some major problems coming up here.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#270

Post by crntaylor » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

marvin wrote: post #238

001sky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...

As always, you are welcome to take up a very big CHF loan and put your money where your mouth is ;) I expect you have a 50% chance of making money. The actual explanation is a lot simpler; McDonalds employees are more expensive in Switzerland than in the US. You can see the same effect where I live, in Norway.

Your first point isn't too far off the mark. If goods are really 60% more expensive in Switzerland than in the US, then you'd expect people/corporations/institutions in Switzerland to use their CHF to buy dollars, buy goods in the US at a large discount and have them shipped to Switzerland, or for Swiss companies to hire US employees and pay them in USD, thus driving the USD/CHF exchange rate towards purchasing power parity.

Up to transaction costs (inc shipping) and trading restrictions, this really should happen, so it's interesting to explore why it doesn't. Typically the culprits are artificial limitations (e.g. international trade restrictions) or low-value goods where shipping costs are large relative to the cost of the item, or goods which spoil easily and so can't be easily shipped.

If you can't explain the disparity with transaction costs and trade restrictions, then there must be some other reason for CHF being so high relative to the USD. One possibility - CHF is viewed as a hedge for various risks (inflation, market crashes). It is typically anti-correlated with the S&P500, for example, and correlated with market volatility, so it's good to be holding it in a crisis. The same applies to JPY, and the opposite applies to AUD and CAD, which are seen as risk-on currencies.