Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#231

Post by thenomad » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 11:52 AM UTC

X4 wrote: post #146

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

For those who don't know what the idea behind the unconditional income is: I'll briefly explain it. Imagine you work hard and only get enough to live on the edge. Now imagine you're not even the average joe, but feel that you could really change things on the world. You haven't to be a genius in order to do that, but you need to be creative, innovative and willing to work without the command to work. Now let's get an…

There's some evidence for this. Initial basic income test programs show that people tend to reinvest their basic income in starting businesses, in particular.

http://www.globalincome.org/English/BI-worldwide.html covers the tests - not unbiased but has useful facts and data on where to get more info.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#232

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:01 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #180

lostlogin wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, however is it really true to say that? If it were, people would sell the currency to get out while the going is good wouldn't they? How could it stay consistently over priced?

People hold CHF as a hedge against inflation and/or government defaults, not as a growth investment.

Well, then it's not overvalued, is it? People value it as a hedge, so it's relative value increases.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#233

Post by rayiner » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:05 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #149

sentenza wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

What happens if you take the implicitly-assumed-to-be-ridiculous third option, and give every visitor a green card and a basic income voucher when they cross the border? Then you don't have any illegal immigrants, just lots and lots and lots of citizens. (Don't just reply with the obviously-bad first-order effect on the country receiving the immigrants; remember that bad things would also be happening to the labor po…

Lots and lots of poor, uneducated, unacculturated citizens, and Switzerland quickly turns into Bangladesh. Brilliant idea!

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#234

Post by jre » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

msvan wrote: post #212

jre wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before.

Taxing a redistributive payment from the government makes no sense. Why not just pre-calculate how much of it goes to tax and then save everyone the paperwork?

4000CHF was regarding the minimum salary, not basic income.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#235

Post by yaddayadda » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:10 PM UTC

kijin wrote: post #87

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One problem I find with most jobs is that it's much easier to get more pay than less hours, even if I really want the latter. There is a large drop-off between full-time and part-time work. I wonder how much of that is due to habits and regulations that are necessary in the absence of basic income. When most people are full-time workers, and when most people need to be in order to survive, it's not surprising that…

It also means that there are employers who see a full-time employee as more expensive than two part-time employees and therefore have exclusive or nearly exclusive part-time employment. For employees in this situation that need full-time income, they end up taking a second or even third part-time job, thus working full-time or more hours but without the expected benefits of full-time employment.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#236

Post by tpainton » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:17 PM UTC

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else doesn't have to. When that time comes, you either join the leaches or you leave the environment. Eventually, you always end up with a negative balance. It is doomed to failure.. Eventually.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#237

Post by yaddayadda » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:20 PM UTC

growupkids wrote: post #204

mattlutze wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Swiss, so I have no skin in the game. Therefore, I don't care who pays :-) "It's unaffordable" can certainly mean "we don't want to pay". It can also mean "Are there enough rich enough people and businesses that can pay, that this can be passed, or can reasonably be collected?" It is a question of political will, and it's annoying when people lambast that question with criticism as simple selfishness. Redistr…

Not to mention that it also hits business, and some businesses may just choose move to markets without redistribution whereas it may not be as easy for the workers to move. That in turn hits not only the tax base once, but twice (less paid workers, less taxes from businesses).

But the workers that don't move will still have a basic income. Without the 'need' to immediately get new employment, those workers can take the time to train for, or create from scratch, a more fulfilling job at a company that won't pack up and relocate when social welfare is given priority over greed.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#238

Post by marvin » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:21 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #158

jre wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...

As always, you are welcome to take up a very big CHF loan and put your money where your mouth is ;) I expect you have a 50% chance of making money.

The actual explanation is a lot simpler; McDonalds employees are more expensive in Switzerland than in the US. You can see the same effect where I live, in Norway.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#239

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:24 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #183

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well at least no-one tries wrapping an artichoke in a condom and swallowing it to get past customs. Not even the Swiss German speakers ;-)

I assumed I had missed a story. I've just run the oddest google search I've tried in the last little while.

possibly the last remaining googlewhack ? :-)

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#240

Post by tpainton » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 12:30 PM UTC

I have to chuckle at the thought of forcing the wealthy to pay other wealthy a minimum income. Or is the 'wealthy' excluded from the definition of 'every adult'. What a complete waste of time and paper.