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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#101
post #50
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot democracy. Note that this bill was introduced by the people, not the government. In Switzerland, as long as you can get 100'000 to sign a referendum, you can get a bill to be voted on. We also vote 4 times a year on bills, that is we the people, not we the politicians.

And in 1990 women could even vote!

1989 (Appenzell Ausserrhoden) and 1990 (Appenzell Innerrhoden) where the last two cantons that allowed a woman to vote. Most already allowed it in the 1970s. However 1970s is still way to late and shameful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_Switzerland

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#102
I like this idea and think it's something that's going to become more common. As more and more jobs are automated it makes sense that governments would eventually generate money through automating societies least popular jobs and use the money generated through that to pay citizens a basic salary.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#103
post #4
post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.

Switzerland seems to be really expensive (I only went there on holiday a few times and then expensive doesn't matter too much as it's expected). I was going to rant about the fact not everyone lives in Zurich and in the countries I have lived the divide between rural and urban places is huge, price wise. Where I live, with the same behavioral patterns, living in a city is at least 5x more expensive than living in the country side and in the country side you get to live, for the same money, in a villa with a pool and tons of land instead of an apartment with concrete views. After checking housing prices, this difference does not seem to be as great in Switzerland. Is that true?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#104
post #13
post #5

Before anyone gets too excited, let's remember that this is also the country where the people voted against raising the required paid holidays (2012), for substantial cuts in unemployment allowances (2010), and for increasing the VAT (2009), just to give some recent examples. Regardless of its merits, it is going to be nearly impossible to gather popular support for an idea such as basic income. But hey, at least we'…

Yes we Swiss have this weird habit of voting against things that look like they would be a benefit for us (in the short term). I voted against more paid holidays as I think 4 weeks (minimum) is enough and forcing everyone to raise it to 5 would hurt the economy. Similarly I'd vote against this proposed bill if I still lived in Switzerland as I don't see how it could work, despite it being generally an intriguing idea…

Because 6 was just too much. Most people would have votes for 5 since a lot already get that. 6 was just too greedy.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#105
post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income.

I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfilling, cleaner, safer job that pays more. Those people depend on income, any income, to live, so they do the dirty jobs, and since there is a large pool of these workers, the shitty jobs can even pay just enough to survive.

With a decent basic income scheme, i.e. the basic needs of the people taken care of, the job market would probably flip: You would have to pay people very well for doing unpleasant work, and not so well for fulfilling jobs.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#106

I've always liked the idea of a base salary for all citizens. However, this plan appears to set the base level far too high -- it needs to be barely enough to fund the most basic of life's essentials, and indexed to an inflation rate of essential commodities. Life on this salary needs to be difficult and unsatisfying. The model I imagine would also: * Be paid to all citizens from age zero. Which means it can replace…

I can't see how paying citizens from age zero could possibly be a good idea. Either the government will have control on how that money can be spent (through regulation or otherwise) or the parents will, and I wouldn't consider either case good. Requiring accreditation for services that can be bought with the kids money won't prevent people from corrupting or exploiting the system, only delay them.

I also think that while basic income should only covers essentials initially, there's no reason not to increase it as our technology/efficiency/automation improves. This idea that "life needs to be basic and unsatisfying" - unless you work, is IMO not only one of the things basic income should be correcting; it also simply isn't effective. There's an infinity of entertainment out there now, for free, with nothing more than a computer and internet connection. So long as you can afford food to eat, a place to live and medical, I could see people living on only a little more comfortably.

The strength of basic income is, I think, that even if you have a chunk of the population that become solely consumers, a large number of people are freed from working on what they're forced to and can work on what they're interested in. There much more space for creativity and failure in all media, in business, in startups. You could potentially accelerate your economic growth by a pretty large degree because it takes so little to get things going today. And the people that do get something going and succeed at scale don't need tens of thousands of other people working for them to grow to a massive level anymore. How many people worked at IBM when they reached a billion dollar valuation in today's dollars? MS? Google? Facebook? I'm going to take a guess and say it was significantly less people with each succeeding company, and that trend is far from over. Plain and simple, we no longer need the whole population working when people can multiply their capabilities with robots, automation, frameworks, search functions, etc.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#107
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Its cost controls are weak, at best. There's no way the country will come out the other side of this with cheaper healthcare." Thankfully the cost controls are existant, at least, which is by inspection better than the status quo. This existence also renders your conclusion on costs a complete non sequitur. Trivia: as much as conservatives hate Obamacare (spoilers: a lot), they can't resist using the cost savings it…

Wrong. Young people are paying quite higher premiums for care under Obamacare. http://americanactionforum.org/research/premium-increases-fo...

You're worse than wrong -- you're not even wrong. We're talking about costs as a whole.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always want more, so this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Then they will earn more, and pay more taxes, and the cycle continues. Alternatively, the Swiss government may have enough money to invest it all and pay for this out of dividends. Just because the US is broke doesn't mean that everyone is.

People always want more Based on the reading I've done on the subject, in places where a minimum basic income well into the poverty range was given, people actually just cut back on everything until it covered their expenses, i.e. people preferred poverty to working low-wage jobs. That makes sense to me. That said...I'm still in favor of a universal minimum basic income, because I always expect social regressions whe…

I'd love some citations for/links to your reading. I only ever hear about that small Canadian experiment where the result was supposedly that only fewer teenagers dropped out of school to work and new parents stopped working for longer, or something.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Maybe some of them. If American welfare is any indications you'll have generations of people who will live within this free money system, do nothing, learn nothing and demand more and more over time. They will all have iPhones, huge flat screen TV's and never work a day in their lives.…

> If American welfare is any indications you'll have generations of people who will live within this free money system, do nothing, learn nothing and demand more and more over time. They will all have iPhones, huge flat screen TV's and never work a day in their lives. There has been a five-year over lifetime limit on welfare since the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act in '96 that replaced AFDC (Aid for…

Well, maybe i am wrong on it being purely a welfare effect. There are many other inputs in that system. Search youtube on how to make money for having babies as an example. Food stamps are another input. For quite some time Russian immigrants coming into Los Angeles had a reputation for piling into homes/appartments and milking every ounce of available government assistance, even to the extreme of keeping quiet when a relative died in order to retain benefits. In addition to that, they developed an extensive under the table cash black market. They would work for cash, earn government benefits, not pay taxes and make tons of money. They were quite fond of Cadillacs and Mercedes Benz. A couple of friends of mine were cops covering some of these areas of LA. They have stories that would make anyone's head spin.

My point, perhaps, is that people are resoursefull when it comes to these things and come up with amazing ways to game the system. Most recently the LAUSD has been handing out iPads to students. They quickly figured out how to unlock them. It also looks like some of them probably evaporated, surely making their way onto Craigs List or eBay.

What ends up happening is that those who actually live an honest life and end-up supporting untold layers of deadbeats created and empowered by the State.

My cop friends are Democrats to the bone but their "faith" regarding some of these programs was rocked a long time ago because they saw first hand what the programs can turn people into.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#110
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every adult gets 2500/month, so a family of 2 adults + 3 children would get 5000/month which is nowhere near enough in most places in Switzerland.

I was thinking of a family with five adults. No reason for the children to leave such a profitable nest. The other scenario is a group of adult friends or relatives.

I think centralized living has huge benefits and should be encouraged. This would be a good start.
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