Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#331

Post by tpainton » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:29 PM UTC

da02 wrote: post #256

tpainton wrote: post #236

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else…

Are you saying you are against: democratized wealth re-distribution, democratized theft, and charity at gunpoint? How did you "see the light"? Was it Rand or someone else?

Hard work and payoff. Food stamps and welfare doesn't buy trips to Bora Bora..

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#332

Post by halfninety » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:37 PM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #317

marknutter wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

Because you will still have to compete for desirable jobs. For menial labor, most of it can/will be automated. For undesirable jobs that can't be automated away, employers will have to make the jobs desirable. One way to do that will be to increase the pay, but, that is not the only means for doing so. There are many things employers can do to make employment more desirable that have a low or zero net cost. I'd even…

He says people will have less motivation to improve performance because they can afford losing the job, you disagree. Then you go on and say that people will have less pressure to comply with unethical demands because they can afford losing the job...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#333

Post by danbmil99 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:40 PM UTC

I'll be on the lookout for lots of great Swiss bands to hit the scene around 2017 (if this gets passed).

Also lots of alternative art shows, post-feminist poetry readings, etc.

Should be fun

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#334

Post by Camillo » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #263

hackinthebochs wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, are you accusing the idea that multiculturalism doesn't work as being racist? There is ample evidence that it in fact doesn't work: that an underclass is inevitable and that status applied to an entire culture is immensely damaging.

The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…

I'm not really familiar with the situation in the UK. My very vague understanding is that the native Britons are so bad, with their chavs and yobs and twelve-year-old moms, that no group of immigrants, no matter how poor or uneducated, could make things worse. [1]

However, it seems to me that you feel so strongly about the issue that, even if immigration did create big social problems that wouldn't otherwise exist, you still would be accusing anyone who pointed that out of being racist. Basically, "that's racist" is not the conclusion of your argument, but rather the premise, and you're using it as a thought-terminating cliché.

Or at least that's my impression as an uninvolved observer, even though I'm more sympathetic to your position.

[1: I hope the British hackers don't get too offended, that was largely tongue-in-cheek.]

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#335

Post by drone » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

xavi wrote: post #314

001sky wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you tax people on income, because they have the attachment to money they have not yet received. Also, it is a liquid payment, so the costs of re-distribution are lower as there is no illiquidity losses. If you tax property, then either you are taxing liquid income anyway, or you are forcing the sale of assets (the latter is inefficient, economically, because of asset specificty).

I don't understand any of your arguments! How is a single tax on land value taxing on income? Can you put an example? I understand the tax would be on the value of the land, not on its size (from your comment I'm not sure if you understood in the same way). The tax only "forces" you to sell assets/property that you don't need or use to generate your income. I don't think this is bad. I don't see how taxing (land) pro…

An increase in the marketable value of the land is considered an increase in income in such a model. (In fact, it -is- treated as an increase in income, just like the federal government in the US treat the distribution of restricted stock [which generally cannot be sold] as income.)

Your statement about productivity might hold true, if it weren't for the fact that (at least here in my state), the tax value of land is based not only on unrelated market factors, but also on improvements and use of the land. Therefore, if you remodel your kitchen, the taxes on your home will increase. (Yes, they often do here - you have to pull permits to do this work within the city, and the county assessor monitors permit issues.)

However, I do generally agree with the concept that property taxes are better than income taxes (which is one reason why I live in a state that utilizes this model), however, I can see that it creates downstream problems, especially for renters. That is to say, if I am renting a property, I would be foolish to not charge a margin on all costs - therefore a 5% tax to me becomes a 5.5% cost to you - I would charge a margin for fronting the taxes for you, and to compensate for periods where the property is un-rented.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#336

Post by danbmil99 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:44 PM UTC

summerdown2 wrote: post #302

omegant wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from Spain and having seen the reaction to high quantities of money available. A system like this will need to be very well monitored, it can help immensely to those in need, but if done unconditionally it will certainly encourage laziness in a sector of the society. My wife is a doctor and before the crisis she used to have patients DEMAND the permanent disability, because they wanted to stop working. They wer…

> A system like this will need to be very well monitored, it can help immensely to those in need, but if done unconditionally it will certainly encourage laziness in a sector of the society. Thought experiment: If the overall effect of basic income is to make things better overall(1), does it really matter if some people become lazy? (1) Through whatever metric you want to measure. ... To give some background, my que…

This assumes a static proportion of "lazy" or unethical people. I think the counterargument is one of moral hazard: if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy.

There is also a motivational issue -- many people (I suspect) will find it harder to work for a living if they sense that their hard-earned money is taxed and given away to freeloaders.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#337

Post by Camillo » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:47 PM UTC

Systemic33 wrote: post #191

sentenza wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

It's funny you should mention that last part, because that's exactly the situation in Denmark. We have in my opinion a waaay too high basic income, and there is a growing problem, with people who'd rather live on governement payouts, than get a job. And the nationalists are getting anxious about immigration, so there is a populist party that is against immigration, that is getting bigger and bigger support. It is ove…

As a member of the EU, how do you keep people from other EU countries from just moving to Denmark and claiming benefits?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#338

Post by scarmig » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:49 PM UTC

Systemic33 wrote: post #191

sentenza wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

It's funny you should mention that last part, because that's exactly the situation in Denmark. We have in my opinion a waaay too high basic income, and there is a growing problem, with people who'd rather live on governement payouts, than get a job. And the nationalists are getting anxious about immigration, so there is a populist party that is against immigration, that is getting bigger and bigger support. It is ove…

Denmark does not have a basic income.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#339

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:50 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #23

jrockway wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always want more, so this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Then they will earn more, and pay more taxes, and the cycle continues. Alternatively, the Swiss government may have enough money to invest it all and pay for this out of dividends. Just because the US is broke doesn't mean that everyone is.

> this will allow people to live comfortably while they, for example, acquire a more profitable skill than what they currently have. Maybe some of them. If American welfare is any indications you'll have generations of people who will live within this free money system, do nothing, learn nothing and demand more and more over time. They will all have iPhones, huge flat screen TV's and never work a day in their lives.…

This is one of the arguments against Basic Income and related topics i find most biased against lower income workers.

If your goal is to make everyone work, you have to fight wealth accumulation.

You sold a company for 5B$ ? doesnt matter, you should be taxed until you have almost no money, so you have to keep working. Your parents made rich money? tough luck. No inheritance. Get to work.

But I have yet to hear someone propose something like that. Why would you put higher strains on poor people than on rich ones.

My 0.02$

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#340

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

powertower wrote: post #278

pgeorgi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal healthcare, social security and pensions in Germany (late 19th century): millions saved. And it's that big a political experiment that the most powerful country in the world still doesn't dare to replicate it in its entirety.

USSR. Millions lost.

USA's New Deal: potentially millions saved from starvation.

That's the problem with those comparisons: it's easy to point at the precise body count of radical experiments that went the wrong way, but quite hard to enumerate the lives saved due to those that worked out. Kind of survivorship bias in reverse.

I'd guess the establishment and enforcement of sanitary standards (which, at the beginning, was considered quite radical) saved more people than all dictators of the world together managed to kill. But that's as hand-wavy as anything else in this subthread.