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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#321

Post by nmcfarl »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #300
gaius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Cambodia is one, North Korea, China in the 50s, Zimbabwe... Millions dead.

In what way were Pol Pot era Cambodia and Mugabe era Zimbabwe political experiments? They were/are dictators! There's nothing remotely radical about dictatorships.

Dictators are almost always radical.

As a rule they tear down, or kill all of the people who oppose them. Which leads to a radical shifting of institutions in a country, to such a degree that post dictator, the places almost never revert to a state that resembles what they were like pre-dictator.

Dictators consistently alter the course of history for the places they rule.

---

I understand that you are saying that as we know the results, these things are not radical. I disagree, known results can be very radical.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#322

Post by rsynnott »

tpainton wrote: post #236

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else…

> Sounds like communism to me...

Yes, this is exactly what happened in communist countries. That's why everyone hated Stalin so much; he kept giving people money for free.

In real life, basic income has mostly been a popular idea with liberal socialists and with libertarians; Bertrand Russell suggested it, but so did Milton Friedman. It very much isn't popular amongst communists, however.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#323

Post by phunehehe0 »

jre wrote: post #135
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Another perspective here, I actually converted that into dollars and realized it's more than my salary (me being in Vietnam). However I quickly came to my senses and comfort myself that prices are different in Switzerland. Thanks for confirming this.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if you can use that money to live somewhere cheaper, maybe without letting the government know. If you can, I think that's a problem to solve before this deal can go through.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#324

Post by xavi »

ksrm wrote: post #224
xavi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am all for more fair wealth distribution, but I don't see how this would be sustainable. With a basic income so high and higher taxes on the rich, what's the incentive to work for money? Hence, who would pay this? I think Georgism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism ), which doesn't tax income, but it only taxes land (so, not earned income) is a better approach to get a sustainable and more fair distribution of…

Yes! I've been saying this for a while. A basic income funded by a land value tax would solve a lot of society's problems, I feel. Unfortunately I think it's a bit too radical for most people.

This means that you would structure the land value tax so that enough money could be collected to pay a basic income for everyone? That's certainly an option, although I'm not sure if I would vote for that, I guess that it would depend on the amount of that basic income. Anyway, the important thing would be to agree on a single tax based on land value.

Maybe some people find it too radical, I don't know, but what's clear for me is that the current system is not sustainable. Maybe when the current system collapses completely it wont't be too radical anymore :)

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#325

Post by drone »

jre wrote: post #189
waterlesscloud wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this for everyone ? In other words, if you're working, is this on top of your income?

Yes, this is unconditional and on top of any other income you get.

How does this financially make sense?

I'm neither an economist nor a mathematician, but how do you give a tax credit to everyone earning money (giving them $30k from the government is largely equivalent to eliminating $30k in taxes for everyone who pays more than $30k) and at the same time give the same, from the tax coffers to everyone earning nothing, or less than $30k? (Numbers here just for illustration...)

Basically, how in the world do you account for the massive drop in actual realized revenue? Where does the money come from without raising the taxes further up the chain?

Extremely simple example:

Person A pays $0 in taxes per year. Person B pays $1 in taxes per year. Person C pays $5 in taxes per year. Person D pays $10 in taxes per year.

If we give each of them $1 back from the tax coffers, the total tax paid now goes from $16/year, to $12/year. Does the elimination of existing welfare programs entirely cover this gap, or does one have to raise the tax rate on the higher earners to cover the spread, and would not simply withholding payments from the top earners make more sense than forcing them to give up their income only to give it back to them at the end of the year?

Personally, I'd be upset if I was forced to give my money to the government at 0% interest, only to know they were going to give it back to me at the end of the year. From the first quarter's contribution, I would have lost money on that due to inflation without the opportunity to offset it via investment. (Which is why I pay the penalties for failing to make estimated payments in the U.S., as I generally outperform the penalties in real rate of return for my cash.)

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#326

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

downandout wrote: post #260
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

I am not an economist, but this sounds like a recipe for massive inflation. At some point, the spending power of the basic income, regardless of the actual amount given, will approach zero. Free money, health care, food, and unicorns for everyone sounds great, but these models are notorious for not working out well.

>these models are notorious for not working out well.

I guess you know because you've seen it tried so many times?

Here is a fact for your non-economist economic model. Automation is displacing labor.

And, here is a prediction: Automation will continue to displace labor until most menial labor tasks are gone.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#329

Post by tpainton »

rsynnott wrote: post #322
tpainton wrote: post #236

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else…

> Sounds like communism to me... Yes, this is exactly what happened in communist countries. That's why everyone hated Stalin so much; he kept giving people money for free. In real life, basic income has mostly been a popular idea with liberal socialists and with libertarians; Bertrand Russell suggested it, but so did Milton Friedman. It very much isn't popular amongst communists, however.

I agree. However, in communist countries (in which my co-workers lived (ex-Soviet)) The job was just a symbol. There would be department stores that sold hardly anything, with 3 people manning a cash register. This is no different than what Swit proposes.. It's just Swit has chosen to forgo the mock job.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#330

Post by tpainton »

garg wrote: post #279
tpainton wrote: post #236

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else…

With the ongoing automation of everything and a population reaching 7.5 billion, a basic income or a standard of living is going to be inevitable.

Right, we can't ever expect the masses to learn advanced skills that will be needed in the next cyclic revolution. This has to be the most negative thing I have heard all month. It's akin to saying, 'Our people are so incapable of moving with the times, we just have to throw them food.'
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