Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#251

Post by mladenkovacevic » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 6:51 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #237

gdy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not?

* There is overwhelming evidence that the Syrian military has stockpiles of nerve agents and ballistic delivery systems for them. BTW: thanks, Russia. * The FSA on the other hand is conducting raids to get rifle ammunition. * There's the obvious issue that the (apparent) sarin attack targeted a neighborhood that was effectively allied with the FSA and that just happened to be a current critical objective for the Syri…

* There is also in fact video evidence of the rebels possessing sarin and actually using and experimenting with it. In fact an earlier UN inspection group led by Carla del Ponte blamed the rebels for a smaller scale attack that happened earlier in the year.

* Syrian military was driving back the rebels in this particular neighborhood just fine without the use of chemical weapons. So Assad in light of this decides to use significant amounts of nerve gas on the very day that he invited UN inspectors to come back?

* Who said that the sarin used was stolen by the FSA from government stockpiles? In an earlier bust of a rebel holdout there were nerve gas delivery mechanisms discovered which appeared to have been produced in Saudi Arabia.

* Finally there is the case of German warships who were patrolling the area and intercepting Syrian military communications and recordings of Assad repeatedly forbidding use of chemical weapons.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#252

Post by mladenkovacevic » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #188

kstenerud wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CleanedStar, it looks like your account has been hellbanned.

Repeating his comment. If he was banned because of this comments, then ban me too. > Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" And what was Russia the year before Putin became head of it? It's not like corruption came in with Putin. Most Russians I know think Putin has lowered the amount of corruption, and I agree. Russia was so corrupt it was barely functioning under Yeltsin. You're correct there is significant c…

A little bit of propaganda combined with a whole lot of blind ignorance and decades of brainwashing can make anyone look like the devil. I believe that for some Americans, the notion that Putin might just not be all about "selling weapons to dictators" makes them have involuntary convulsive reactions.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#253

Post by joshfraser » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 7:10 PM UTC

Pretend Putin wasn't the author. Do you disagree with any of this?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#254

Post by darkarmani » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 9:57 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #222

darkarmani wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? No, but it is circular reasoning to base your argument for refusing consent by saying it is illegal. It's much less compelling if he comes right out and says: "Don't do it, because I don't want you too." So he tries to make the logic convoluted.

You are wrong, he states "you are not allowed do this if we don't consent, and we don't consent" which is according to international law.

He actually never says that.

>> "The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope..."

>> From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law.

Right there they mention that they are for peaceful dialog because they are trying to protect international law. If they were really concerned with international law, why would they veto? Obviously, because they don't want it to happen, not this nonsense about them being all of a sudden concerned about international law.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#255

Post by waps » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 1:08 AM UTC

teamgb wrote: post #178

waps wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt very much it's defending Russia's point of view. It's defending a point of view that has the outcome as Russia's and that Russia would like people to adopt, but I think we can be 100% certain it is not, in fact, Russia's point of view. Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby). The problem here is that the same can be said about Obama. I do not kn…

Er, Russia has huge interest in the region, as do the other players. There are two competing natural gas pipelines being built, both of which must transit through Syria to get to the Mediterranean. What's at stake is who gets to sell energy to Europe for the next 50-100 years! None of this is a secret. The Financial Times and others have reported on this over the years.

Yes I didn't realize the gas pipeline. I think I saw the bond movie on the subject then just thought that any reference to that pipeline I found was a reference to the movie.

But yeah that does look like a pretty serious issue. (Although fossil fuels in the middle east will run out long before 50 years pass, so I doubt it's all that accurate)

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#256

Post by foobarqux » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 1:43 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #179

waps wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt very much it's defending Russia's point of view. It's defending a point of view that has the outcome as Russia's and that Russia would like people to adopt, but I think we can be 100% certain it is not, in fact, Russia's point of view. Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby). The problem here is that the same can be said about Obama. I do not kn…

>Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby). I hope you're kidding. Apart from the obvious generic interests everyone has in the region (oil, pipelines and all that), Syria is one of the top 5 buyers of Russian military hardware and is a long-standing Russian ally in a region immediately South of Russia proper . The whole Syria/Iraq/Iran/Turkey setup is of…

More importantly Syria falling weakens Iran which is the bigger prize.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#257

Post by foobarqux » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 1:56 AM UTC

deveac wrote: post #242

jtc331 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the United States (covertly) is heavily arming the other.

Correct, as Putin pointed out in the piece (in the section I quoted above). The point I was making was that this a political play by an invested actor, not the passionate reasoned plea it was trying to come across as. That was quite an omission he made there, though it made sense rhetorically for his purpose. The poster above found him/herself "not only nodding along but inspired" by they man who is responsible for t…

I assume you have the same criticism of Obama's address?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#258

Post by foobarqux » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 2:20 AM UTC

cremnob wrote: post #59

This is actually a great piece of propaganda that serves Russia's strategic interests. Judging by the comments here and on the NYT, it seems to be working. Putin says war should only happen by consensus from the UN, I wonder why he didn't abide by this principle when Russia intervened against Georgia in South Ossetia in 2008.

Obama's address is actually a great piece of propaganda that serves the United States' strategic interests. Judging by the comments here and on the NYT, it seems to be working.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#259

Post by foobarqux » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #218

People need to understand Putin's motives here. First and foremost is Putin needs to keep Syria in place to prevent Europe from having access to another natural gas pipeline that he or his allies do not have influence over. Qatar wants to sell natural gas to Europe, they want to build a pile line to do it. Well they need/want to go through Syria to get there. Second, Syria is home to a Russian naval base, their only…

The US concerns are exactly the same only in opposition.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#260

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:18 AM UTC

teamgb wrote: post #190

anigbrowl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syria are not a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention (neither are the USA, Israel or Russia) The US, Russia and Israel most certainly are signatories to the CWC. US and Russia both ratified in 1997, Israel has signed but not ratified. The CWC had the force of law once it had 65 signatories. Why would you not bother to check such a simple fact before posting? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Conve…

Why won't Israel ratify? Does Israel have chemical weapons? Maybe there should be a UN resolution requiring all countries in the Middle East to declare and destroy their chemical weapons under UN supervision.

I have no idea and have never even been to Israel. I'm just reporting the fact; if you're curious, you can easily research it yourself. The CWC requires all countries, everywhere, to declare and destroy their chemical weapons.