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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#211

Post by varjag »

Demiurge wrote: post #97
coffeemug wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in the former Soviet Union, and I get what you're saying. But you can't seriously say that Russian exceptionalism isn't used in service of rationalizing the belief that the Russians are better people than the rest of the world. Consider the popularity of Zadornov's humor -- the gist of almost every joke is that foreigners are dumber than the Russians. Also this might be nitpicking, but Americans don't typi…

Of course nationalism exists and is used in Russia. This is true for every country, but I honestly think, having experience with English, American and Spanish cultures, through their media and people as friends, that Russian exceptionism is the most self-denigrating I have ever experienced. On and on people go on how everything is better everywhere else, how everything is shit here in Russia and needs to be copied fr…

> On and on people go on how everything is better everywhere else, how everything is shit here in Russia and needs to be copied from some Western example.

It's a bit complicated. Both Russian disgust towards ethnitities they consider inferior, and their bloated exceptionalism are manifestations of massive national inferiority complex that nearly everyone there suffers from.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#212

Post by gdy »

PeterisP wrote: post #201
cdash wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of the UN and "the law" is that Russia gets to veto the same as the US gets to veto.

The difference is that Russia, unlike US, seems to use their veto EVERY SINGLE TIME when there's some thance that UN might do something. UN Security Council could have had a role in the world - but Mr. Putin is a major reason making UN Security Council useless and nonfunctional.

Yep, that US propganda is a sneaky thing J Next time you want to write something in caps ask youself how do you know this and do fact-checking. And in all other cases too J

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#213

Post by gdy »

haberman wrote: post #91
akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

Also ironic: the only reason this strike would be "against the law" is because of Putin's own veto (and China, who is probably just following suit on this one). He conveniently omits this point, because the moment the focus turns to his motivations, it would be immediately obvious how self-serving the entire piece is.

That's the whole point of consensus decision-making - to prevent usurping power in the UNSC by a US-lead coalition (or any other for that matter). The reason for the veto is lack of credible evidence that the use of sarin wasn't a terrorist's provocation. So, in fact, what we see is that UNSC system is actually working preventing an aggression agains a sovereign state.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#214

Post by PeterisP »

gdy wrote: post #212
PeterisP wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Russia, unlike US, seems to use their veto EVERY SINGLE TIME when there's some thance that UN might do something. UN Security Council could have had a role in the world - but Mr. Putin is a major reason making UN Security Council useless and nonfunctional.

Yep, that US propganda is a sneaky thing J Next time you want to write something in caps ask youself how do you know this and do fact-checking. And in all other cases too J

I know that the USA is blocking any Palestine solutions in the Security Council as well, but it only makes the same point - the concept of "veto" makes Security Council useless. I'm not saying that Putin is the cause of that, but he is one of them (together with USA and China) - his veto power is part of the problem. I was singling out Russia because of (propaganda-induced-opinion?) a pattern I've seen of Russia systematically supporting dictators against their own people.

If there is unilateral consensus, you don't need formal bodies to do stuff, since everybody agrees anyway. However, if we want the global community to be effective, then we need an ability to make decisions and do stuff even if Russia or USA or China is against that, if the vast majority of the world understands that, say, a massacre must be prevented.

Currently we can't do that. As I said, in a number of cases Russia has prevented any progress by using the veto or threat of it. USA has done the same regarding Israel/Palestine - my impression is that it's their major use, media doesn't represent others much. China has as well - often things are abandoned simply because it is clear that it will be vetoed anyway. In essence, only trivial and unneccesary things can be decided there, but any serious things that matter - can't, as definitely someone with some interest will veto that. So the veto powers should be reformed.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#215

Post by boi_v2 »

xerophtye wrote: post #207
darkarmani wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely missing the point. Putin is stating that the reason no one should intervene in Syria, because we need to follow the law (the security council). When the truth is he could easily not veto and intervention would be lawful. That's why it is disingenuous. Vote for it and your dilemma is solved!

That may be, but the point is, it actually is REASONABLE not to intervene. Just because it's PUTIN saying it, doesn't mean that the point is invalid

I agree with you, there are many truths in this letter that can't be ignored. I think many people would get upset with it because Putin is using the same propaganda the US government (and many others) has always used, both hypocrites governing through lies, manipulation, intimidation, coercion, persecution of activists, violence etc. All in the name of "Democracy".

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#216

Post by gdy »

varjag wrote: post #210
abcd_f wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Russian opposition is quite supportive of America Of course it is, because guess who's paying for said opposition?

This sentiment is quite common throughout former USSR: if someone is opposing the established authoritarian rule, they must be shills on the payroll. After all, what's there not to like, right?

The sentiment is that many of them live on Western grants and would never bite a hand that is feeding them.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#217

Post by Spearchucker »

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

I agree with the sentiment of the text, regardless of the author's history. I don't like Obama either, but had he written this I would still have agreed with the content.

Is attacking Putin's character useful in this context?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#218

Post by Shivetya »

People need to understand Putin's motives here.

First and foremost is Putin needs to keep Syria in place to prevent Europe from having access to another natural gas pipeline that he or his allies do not have influence over. Qatar wants to sell natural gas to Europe, they want to build a pile line to do it. Well they need/want to go through Syria to get there.

Second, Syria is home to a Russian naval base, their only one in the region.

Third, Syria buys a lot of weapons from Russia, they buy quite a bit of other materials as well.

Fourth, outside of Syria Russia's only real ally in the area is Iran but they are a bit more off the leash than Syria is.

Top it off with one of the weakest in international affairs US administrations and you give Putin the means to control the worlds opinion. Lets be honest, the amount of dithering on how to act by this Administration is really depressing. It almost seems they were convinced the Middle East would love them and do want they //the Administration // wanted just because they weren't GW Bush. Yet, we have Benghazi, we have the indecision regarding Egypt, Iran is off and running catching drones or faking it all the while mocking the US, and now Syria has shown this Administration is clueless. Its almost as if there are a dozen cooks all trying to do stuff and they either don't make a decision or one does something forcing the others.

TL;DR

Putin's concerns are economic (natural gas), military (base/arms sales), and prestige. With a weak US Presidency he saw an opportunity and took it. Sadly he is/might pull it off

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#219

Post by gdy »

anigbrowl wrote: post #130
jtc331 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's valid to question his motives. But that doesn't change the fact that he's making a perfectly reasonable argument. And when we're deciding whether or not to go to war, the reasonable and valid argument should win--regardless of who's making it.

I don't think his claims that the rebels are the source of the gas attack are 'perfectly reasonable,' and if you don't sign on to his breezy certitude on this point the rest of his argument falls apart.

Why not?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#220

Post by pekk »

SCAQTony wrote: post #146
akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

"...If at this point, Putin sounds reasonable and is starting to look like the better of two devils, we're in deep shit...." Well, at this point with the NSA scandals, this Syrian civil, I am convince that Putin is the reasonable voice and that we ARE in deep shit.

So move to Russia. You first.
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