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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#121

Post by jtc331 »

nhebb wrote: post #88
rosser wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're factually correct in every respect, most of your comment is an ad hominem attack. Putin's arguments should be considered on their merits, regardless of his, his government's, or his country's character and history.

I would argue that for heads of state, ad hominem attacks are perfectly valid. Even if Putin's logic is correct, it's reasonable to question his motives based on his character and past actions.

Sure, it's valid to question his motives. But that doesn't change the fact that he's making a perfectly reasonable argument. And when we're deciding whether or not to go to war, the reasonable and valid argument should win--regardless of who's making it.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#122

Post by jtc331 »

deveac wrote: post #96
muerdeme wrote: post #28

Putin (or his representatives) knows his audience. This piece eschews the normal alpha bravado that I would expect from Putin in favor of a coherent argument in favor of restraint. I found myself not merely nodding along, but inspired, and I hope that we can at least agree with him on this. It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United State…

He certainly does know his audience, and he certainly failed to mention a certain key foreign power supplying weapons to one of the sides... >This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world. Yes this is essentially a civil war between the current regime and a multifaceted opposition. Putin is heavily arming one of those sides.

And the United States (covertly) is heavily arming the other.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#123

Post by dandelany »

jnardiello wrote: post #90

One general and universally true law: To comprehend responsabilities and "who did what" you just have to look at the situation with critic eye, ignore all the politics (and propaganda that comes with it, the US are masters. Just calling it with a different name: PR and Marketing) and just look for the side which is actually gaining anything from ongoing events. I bet that 99% of the people reading this know absolutel…

Tl;dr you are all ignorant morons so let me tell you what's going on? Honestly, what did your second paragraph accomplish other than to alienate your audience? I think there's a good chance you're right, but I'm too distracted by the irony of a self-exceptionalist panning a Russian exceptionalist panning American exceptionalism to take you seriously.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#124

Post by CleanedStar »

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

> Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state"

And what was Russia the year before Putin became head of it? It's not like corruption came in with Putin. Most Russians I know think Putin has lowered the amount of corruption, and I agree. Russia was so corrupt it was barely functioning under Yeltsin. You're correct there is significant corruption in the government, but amazingly there was even more corruption before Putin came in.

> eternal dream of Russia as a global hegemon on par with the United States

Russia's GDP is one eighth of the US's. It's ratio was even lower back in 1917. Who thinks this? Not even Zhirinovsky thinks this is realistic.

> The Russian state has assassinated journalists

Then you link to a list of journalists killed by persons in Russia. Where's the link?

Who killed Chauncey Bailey in the US in 2007? Who killed Dona St. Plite? Who killed Manuel de Dios Unanue? Scores of journalists in the US have been killed who did not agree with the government foreign policy on Haiti, on Vietnam etc.

> and jailed political opponents with impunity

How about Manning? They want to extradite Snowden. Lynne Stewart is in jail. American jails are filled with political opponents. Oh, they broke the law? Well that's what they say in Russia too.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#125

Post by spacebe4time »

sologoub wrote: post #103
coffeemug wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in the former Soviet Union, and I get what you're saying. But you can't seriously say that Russian exceptionalism isn't used in service of rationalizing the belief that the Russians are better people than the rest of the world. Consider the popularity of Zadornov's humor -- the gist of almost every joke is that foreigners are dumber than the Russians. Also this might be nitpicking, but Americans don't typi…

Russian superiority views are a relic of the empirical past. Every empire-forming nation has that same trait - us versus barbarians. UK has this trait also and it is well illustrated in "Great Britain". Russia might have been a great place to live, if it weren't for rampant corruption. It's sad, but on a personal level, I just can't take the risk of raising a family there or trying to do business. In US, entrepreneur…

It isn't relic. Just like coffeemug I was born and raised in the Soviet Union.

It's not openly taught in schools but most ethnic Russians consider themselves higher race and everyone else is intellectually inferior.

This is even taught by Russian Orthodox Church. I graduated from high school after Soviet Union collapsed. We had this course called Christian Morality. In the class room I learned curious thing. It turned out that Jews drank blood of innocent Christian infants during their religious rituals. I am not kidding you.

Russian exceptionalism is outright nationalism and borderline nazism. My own father is openly hostile Ukrainians and Pols (other Slavic people). Why? Well, because they are Ukrainians and Pols and are not Russian. Therefore, it makes them half-human.

Soviet and Russian empires are long gone. But Putin and many Russians still dream to restore it.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#126

Post by chrischen »

rooshdi wrote: post #113
haberman wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be, but Putin is making a case against intervention while omitting his huge conflict of interest. He is making self-serving arguments under the guise of caring about lofty ideals that his own actions demonstrate he has no regard for.

The same can be said about the United States. Every nation has an agenda in the region.

You say that as if everyone's equal...

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#127

Post by nikcub »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #8

How much evidence do we in fact have that the rebels gassed their own people in a false-flag operation? I had heard it was a possibility, Putin seems to think it's all but certain, but I haven't studied the issue in depth.

Here is everything the major allies have released to back up their case:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/graphic/2013/sep/03/syria-c...

It isn't very good, it seems to be a case of finding scraps that fit your narrative rather than building a case.

One thing that leads me to believe that it might have been the rebels: the civilians and soldiers killed in that rebel controlled area around Damascus were part of the more moderate Syrian opposition forces. It is actually one of the few areas controlled by moderate opposition. It is entirely possible that the Salafists or more extreme al Qaeda associated forces carried out the attack using captured supplies. They dislike the moderate opposition about as much as they dislike Assad, and prompting US action suits them the most.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#128

Post by cousin_it »

As a Russian person currently living in Europe and sympathizing with the Russian opposition, this was my first reaction to the article:

Wow, if Putin communicated with Russian voters in the same manner, he would totally have me as a voter!

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#129

Post by foxhedgehog »

rooshdi wrote: post #113
haberman wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be, but Putin is making a case against intervention while omitting his huge conflict of interest. He is making self-serving arguments under the guise of caring about lofty ideals that his own actions demonstrate he has no regard for.

The same can be said about the United States. Every nation has an agenda in the region.

I guess that I missed the Obama administration's op-ed opining about life in Russia.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#130

Post by anigbrowl »

jtc331 wrote: post #121
nhebb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that for heads of state, ad hominem attacks are perfectly valid. Even if Putin's logic is correct, it's reasonable to question his motives based on his character and past actions.

Sure, it's valid to question his motives. But that doesn't change the fact that he's making a perfectly reasonable argument. And when we're deciding whether or not to go to war, the reasonable and valid argument should win--regardless of who's making it.

I don't think his claims that the rebels are the source of the gas attack are 'perfectly reasonable,' and if you don't sign on to his breezy certitude on this point the rest of his argument falls apart.
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