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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#111

Post by 3327 »

muerdeme wrote: post #28

Putin (or his representatives) knows his audience. This piece eschews the normal alpha bravado that I would expect from Putin in favor of a coherent argument in favor of restraint. I found myself not merely nodding along, but inspired, and I hope that we can at least agree with him on this. It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United State…

This is nothing more than a political slap in the face on the international stage to the US. It is almost on par with mingling with internal affairs of the US.

The irony of Putin is doubtless there, and the words logical and true, but the greater truth is that this is just nothing more than tit for tat on the international stage. Hopefully it will work out and bloodshed will be prevented...

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#113

Post by rooshdi »

haberman wrote: post #102
cdash wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of the UN and "the law" is that Russia gets to veto the same as the US gets to veto.

That may be, but Putin is making a case against intervention while omitting his huge conflict of interest. He is making self-serving arguments under the guise of caring about lofty ideals that his own actions demonstrate he has no regard for.

The same can be said about the United States. Every nation has an agenda in the region.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#114

Post by foxhedgehog »

cdash wrote: post #98
nhebb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that for heads of state, ad hominem attacks are perfectly valid. Even if Putin's logic is correct, it's reasonable to question his motives based on his character and past actions.

He is not the one talking about going to war.

He's not?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#115

Post by JesseObrien »

gph wrote: post #16

I can't say I disagree with a lot of what he says. But I doubt he honestly believes in all of this. This rationalization just happens to coincide with his (and Russia's) interests. I think he'd do better to stay silent and let me come to this conclusion on my own instead of feeling dirty for having him agree with me.

>I think he'd do better to stay silent and let me come to this conclusion on my own instead of feeling dirty for having him agree with me.

I'd prefer if he didn't, silence is a cancer. If anything has been blatantly apparent in the last 20 or 30 years it's that the American people as a whole simply cannot form any correct conclusion about anything that actually matters.

Sure, they'll all ring in to vote on American Idol, but it's a tough sell to vote yes on gay marriage.

They'll make sure they hit 'like' on hundreds of Facebook posts in a day, but can't bring themselves to make an educated vote in an election (or even vote at all).

Nationalize healthcare and reform social security to help millions of your own countrymen from dying broke? Busy watching Gangnam Style.

Vote out corrupt congressman and other government officials who take massive payouts from lobbyists? Football's on, get out of the way.

The information age has quickly turned into the distraction age, and it's showing.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#117

Post by ihsw »

codex wrote: post #94

The prism by which this editorial should be viewed is the age old question: what does Putin stand to gain here? And Obama?

Obama and Putin are two figures standing at the front of a very long list of other players pushing behind them.

* Qatar wants to establish a pipeline between them and Turkey for natural gas, but Syria is between them.

* Turkey would partner with Qatar for transiting natural gas to Europe.

* Russia has a strangle-hold on the natural gas market in Europe, so Syria would prefer Qatar not send natural gas to Europe.

* Russia's only naval base in the Mediterranean is in Syria.

I won't go into the complex incestuous intertwining of geopolitical relationships, but the above points are pretty much what broke the camels back.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#118

Post by dobbsbob »

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

I liked his 2012 inaguration (coronation) when Putin strolled through a sea of cheering supporters in full regal pomp to simply switch spots with Medvedev.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#119

Post by sliverstorm »

rosser wrote: post #76
akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

While you're factually correct in every respect, most of your comment is an ad hominem attack. Putin's arguments should be considered on their merits, regardless of his, his government's, or his country's character and history.

Putin's arguments should be considered on their merits, regardless of his... history

I don't have a fancy French word to back me up, but I'm going to disagree. His arguments shouldn't be dismissed out of hand due to his history, but they deserve to come under extra scrutiny. The simplest reason being, as a politician, he is doubtless lying by omission about something, and as he is a politician whatever that something is undoubtedly changes the value equation of his arguments.

I think what I'm saying is given his status as a politician, as well as his history in relation to the subject, we have great cause to suspect him of telling half-truths, which must be evaluated before his arguments can truly be.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#120

Post by 300bps »

haberman wrote: post #91
akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

Also ironic: the only reason this strike would be "against the law" is because of Putin's own veto (and China, who is probably just following suit on this one). He conveniently omits this point, because the moment the focus turns to his motivations, it would be immediately obvious how self-serving the entire piece is.

Doesn't the entire security council have to vote on it? Sure the 5 permanent members have veto power but is it just assumed that the wider council will vote in favor of it?
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