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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

171–180 of 264 posts

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad argument. There are many illegal things a person can make legal by consenting to them. Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? (It's also inapplicable, since even if Russia consented, China wouldn't.)

> Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? No, but it is circular reasoning to base your argument for refusing consent by saying it is illegal. It's much less compelling if he comes right out and says: "Don't do it, because I don't want you too." So he tries to make the logic convoluted.

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only he and perhaps a few close family members can know if he actually is, but his claimed religion is Russian Orthodox. I don't really see much reason to doubt it.

His is a former KGB officer, an organization hardly known for religious tolerance. Most Russians claim Orthodoxy, including me, but Putin is the last person I would associate with any sort of piety.

I'm aware of those things, and obviously he knows that everyone else knows that too. If he says he is religious, I don't think mere conjecture is enough to assume that he isn't.

The actual reality of what he thinks can be known only to himself, the best we can go on (for him, and indeed anybody else. Hell, even the pope...) is what he claims.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#174
My take on the whole situation. It was a mess and Obama made it worse by playing with Putin. While the back patting in Washington punditry is in full swing how the US threats have worked the reality is Obama is making things worse.

He called a vote and a debate for the Congress and now called it off. So on top of the whole mess now there are hurt feelings and egos. What comes now are talks. Which take time and can you know - fail. So in 3 months when Bashar tells Yuck Fou with the silent support of China and Russia, Obama will stand all alone, the chemical attack faded from the memory, the president not dared to respond to the red line and with no friends whatsoever.

If going to Congress was a gambit this is Russian roulette. With semi-automatic pistol.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#175

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

I do wonder if Russians, Arabs, Muslims, and so on feel the same way when Obama (Bush(s), Clinton, Blair, Cameron, etc) pontificates. The phrase "western hypocrisy" is not new. What is ironic, is that oddly I prefer the unashamed way Russia acts, compared to the cover-ups and lies of the west. You know where you stand. We in the west are supposed to be better, but all we are better at really is PR. In Russia, people…

>>> We in the west are supposed to be better, but all we are better at really is PR.

That's baloney, also known as reverse cargo cult. As you know, cargo cult is a fallacy when people simulate external appearances of some process without actually performing it (original cargo cult was building fake airfields and simulating actions of the people working in airfield in hope that actual planes with plentiful food and goods - i.e. cargo - would arrive) and without understanding what exactly causes the external effects. Reverse cargo cult happens when people postulate that there actually were no actual planes ever, just those people that claimed they fly the planes are much better at pretending (or, as you say now, in PR) than the cargo cult practitioners, thus they appear to have more success, even though under the pretense there's no actual essence in either case, and the essence doesn't actually exist and is just a lie.

Of course, it is trivially obvious to any informed person that while we have major undeniable problems with surveillance running amok and other serious problems in the US, situation with personal rights and liberties in the US is way better than in Russia. In US there are no things like Khodorkovsky's or Magnitsky's affairs, there are no laws introducing internet censorship, there is Bill of Rights, there are independent courts, there is a free press, there is the police that mostly is doing its job and not racketeering businesses, and I could continue all day long. Yes, abuses do happen, and yes, they are bad, and yes, right now we are living through a number of them and US citizens need to fix them if they want to preserve their liberties - but claiming "all we are better at really is PR" is misguided at best and playing right to the hands of dictators like Putin and Assad at worst. After all, if everybody is only pretending, why should Putin or Assad change anything? They just has to lie more and better and everything would be fine.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#177

"There is every reason to believe [sarin gas] was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists." Obama asserted something quite different in last night's address. He stated that the Syrian army distributed gas masks to their soldiers before the attacks, that documents show Syrian generals reviewing the re…

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#178
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The content is nothing new, the author is the only interesting part of this article.

I doubt very much it's defending Russia's point of view. It's defending a point of view that has the outcome as Russia's and that Russia would like people to adopt, but I think we can be 100% certain it is not, in fact, Russia's point of view. Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby). The problem here is that the same can be said about Obama. I do not kn…

Er, Russia has huge interest in the region, as do the other players.

There are two competing natural gas pipelines being built, both of which must transit through Syria to get to the Mediterranean.

What's at stake is who gets to sell energy to Europe for the next 50-100 years!

None of this is a secret. The Financial Times and others have reported on this over the years.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#179
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The content is nothing new, the author is the only interesting part of this article.

I doubt very much it's defending Russia's point of view. It's defending a point of view that has the outcome as Russia's and that Russia would like people to adopt, but I think we can be 100% certain it is not, in fact, Russia's point of view. Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby). The problem here is that the same can be said about Obama. I do not kn…

>Russia does not seem to have any big interests in the neighborhood (though it certainly has them nearby).

I hope you're kidding. Apart from the obvious generic interests everyone has in the region (oil, pipelines and all that), Syria is one of the top 5 buyers of Russian military hardware and is a long-standing Russian ally in a region immediately South of Russia proper. The whole Syria/Iraq/Iran/Turkey setup is of deep concern to the natural security interests of Russia, which is in actual target range of missiles from that area.

It'd be like saying that the US have no big interest in Caribbean and Central American states.

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