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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#161

Post by sliverstorm »

mtrimpe wrote: post #138
sliverstorm wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin's arguments should be considered on their merits, regardless of his... history I don't have a fancy French word to back me up, but I'm going to disagree. His arguments shouldn't be dismissed out of hand due to his history, but they deserve to come under extra scrutiny. The simplest reason being, as a politician, he is doubtless lying by omission about something , and as he is a politician whatever that somethin…

They're actually fancy Latin words.

Glorious. I kid you not, I thought "Latin" and I typed "French".

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#162

Post by beloch »

pekk wrote: post #147
beloch wrote: post #92

Putin is certainly playing to his audience and is guilty of more than a little hypocrisy in this piece, but I tend to agree with his central argument. If the world has any duty to those inside Syria, it is to safeguard the lives of the innocent. How will rocket attacks accomplish this? The second U.S.-Iraq war and the subsequent occupation proved that state-of-the-art precision air and rocket strikes are still a very…

It's amazing that you managed not to mention the chemical weapons issue even one time.

Okay, I'll bite. Let's say the U.S. actually knows where the chemical weapons are made/stored or just scores a "lucky" hit with a cruise missile. Explosions happen to be great for spreading stuff over large areas. What could happen if a major stockpile of chemical agents gets hit and it happens to be near or directly upwind of a major population center?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#163

Post by darkarmani »

gruseom wrote: post #160
darkarmani wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely missing the point. Putin is stating that the reason no one should intervene in Syria, because we need to follow the law (the security council). When the truth is he could easily not veto and intervention would be lawful. That's why it is disingenuous. Vote for it and your dilemma is solved!

This is a bad argument. There are many illegal things a person can make legal by consenting to them. Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? (It's also inapplicable, since even if Russia consented, China wouldn't.)

> Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law?

No, but it is circular reasoning to base your argument for refusing consent by saying it is illegal. It's much less compelling if he comes right out and says: "Don't do it, because I don't want you too." So he tries to make the logic convoluted.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#164

Post by kstenerud »

akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

CleanedStar, it looks like your account has been hellbanned.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#165

Post by carlob »

darkarmani wrote: post #157
rooshdi wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be said about the United States. Every nation has an agenda in the region.

You are completely missing the point. Putin is stating that the reason no one should intervene in Syria, because we need to follow the law (the security council). When the truth is he could easily not veto and intervention would be lawful. That's why it is disingenuous. Vote for it and your dilemma is solved!

Suppose someone is raping you:

- Stop this! You're hurting me. Stop it! You'll go to jail.

- I wouldn't go to jail if you just consented to sex.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#166

Post by sologoub »

jlgreco wrote: post #152
sologoub wrote: post #104

Well, the biggest surprise in the article for me is Putin invoking God. Never figured him for a religious man.

Only he and perhaps a few close family members can know if he actually is, but his claimed religion is Russian Orthodox. I don't really see much reason to doubt it.

His is a former KGB officer, an organization hardly known for religious tolerance. Most Russians claim Orthodoxy, including me, but Putin is the last person I would associate with any sort of piety.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#167

Post by hrasyid »

300bps wrote: post #120
haberman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also ironic: the only reason this strike would be "against the law" is because of Putin's own veto (and China, who is probably just following suit on this one). He conveniently omits this point, because the moment the focus turns to his motivations, it would be immediately obvious how self-serving the entire piece is.

Doesn't the entire security council have to vote on it? Sure the 5 permanent members have veto power but is it just assumed that the wider council will vote in favor of it?

they tend to fall in

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#168

Post by VladRussian2 »

mrb wrote: post #159
akiselev wrote: post #66

"The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not." The irony of Putin saying this cannot be understated. This entire editorial is dripping with it. For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a "virtual mafia state" [1] and a government of thugs who are too busy stealing the wealth generated by Russia's natural resources to pursue the eternal dream of Russia…

"For those of you buying into his rhetoric, remember that Putin is the head of a 'virtual mafia state'" If a criminal says that helping an old lady cross the street is the right thing to do, would you discard his statement because he is a criminal? No! For the same reason, Putin may be doing evil things in his country, but I still side with him: bombing Syria is a silly idea.

>If a criminal says that helping an old lady cross the street is the right thing to do, would you discard his statement because he is a criminal? No!

many people unfamiliar with Russia or similar countries forget that selective enforcement of law is a well established and widely practiced form of tyranny and abuse of power there. The same principle applies when people like Putin are selectively say/do something that may look like a right thing - it is just a tool of advancing their agenda. Like in your example with a criminal when he would point you to the lady requiring assistance, and would do whatever he wants while your attention is diverted. You'd need to discard his statement precisely because he is a criminal.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#169

Post by comex »

beloch wrote: post #162
pekk wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing that you managed not to mention the chemical weapons issue even one time.

Okay, I'll bite. Let's say the U.S. actually knows where the chemical weapons are made/stored or just scores a "lucky" hit with a cruise missile. Explosions happen to be great for spreading stuff over large areas. What could happen if a major stockpile of chemical agents gets hit and it happens to be near or directly upwind of a major population center?

Do you think that the entire U.S. military has not thought of that idea? While there is the possibility of a mistake, presumably they will avoid strikes on locations which are likely to cause such an event.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#170

Post by hrasyid »

te_chris wrote: post #3
andrewljohnson wrote: post #2

A lot of this is rhetoric that we expect from Realpolitik, but overall, I think Putin burnishes his and Russia's reputation with this sort of dialog. I also wonder how common place it is for major heads of state to write essays in the Times.

Well, al Assad has been active in the onion recently....

lol, good one!
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