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Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

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Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#101

Post by davvolun »

danenania wrote: post #74
dylangs1030 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ridiculous. This comment is a spectacular example of the faulty politicizing and black and white mentality being tossed about willy-nilly since the NSA scandal. First of all - this is not indicative of Russia. This is just one Russian national giving him a job, and his stated reasons in the press may not be the real reasons why. Second, Russia gave him asylum yes, but instead of echo chambering your preconceiv…

Sorry, secretly storing and analyzing the private communications and browsing history of everyone on the planet absolutely is evil. Doesn't matter what the reason is. If you don't understand this, there is something severely wrong with your moral compass.

Didn't necessarily disagree with you until "If you don't understand this, there is something severely wrong with your moral compass." Personal attack and severe hyperbole wrapped into one, comments are about encouraging debate, so if you can't do that, just...shhhhh...

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#102

Post by dylangs1030 »

danenania wrote: post #82
dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

You are hand wringing over the details and completely missing the point. The most conservative possible interpretation of Snowden's leaks still leaves the NSA secretly spying on the private communications and online activity of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. If you find it difficult to see why this is morally abhorrent, I'm just not…

Hundreds of millions is a bit more tolerable than an entire planet. I'd like to also point out I agree with you - none of my statements here should be interpreted as support for the NSA's excesses. Rather, my incentive is to:

1) Prevent people on the forum from using it as a buzzword to make points devoid of strong, reasoned arguments,

2) Prevent people from believing the NSA should be burned to the ground and disbanded entirely, when it does serve a very useful purpose.

Historically, there have been far worse totalitarian measures. To give one that is relevant to privacy and this particular issue: consider that in the KGB, the secret police could raid your home at any time without a warrant, and when you picked up the phone an operator immediately told you what you said would be recorded. Oh, sure you knew about it. That makes it so much better, I suppose, even though it was far more reaching than what the NSA is currently doing.

I want it very well understood that while the excesses of the agency should be corrected, and Americans should be entitled to privacy, we can't allow ourselves to just attack things passionately because the NSA scandal tells us to. That, and we should maintain a historical perspective so we understand how bad things are and we don't freak out as if it's the worst thing ever, when far worse things have happened in previous generations.

A level of outrage is appropriate - losing sensibility in debates is not.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#103

Post by aclevernickname »

muyuu wrote: post #79
dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

SAYS "YOU'RE RIDICULOUS" TO A PREVIOUS POSTER FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS WHINES ABOUT BEING THE TARGET OF AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Normally I disagree with the invocation of Scumbag Steve, but you, sir, are doing it right.

After reading the article on Crowdturfing [1], I can no longer assume that everyone posting here is acting in good faith.

[1] http://sdt.bz/61989

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#104

Post by fauigerzigerk »

danenania wrote: post #93
acomar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. Really...? Come on now, that's totally unbacked by any analysis of history. I agree with you on the immorality, but hyperbole like that doesn't advance your case very well.

Please point out any previous attempts to build ubiquitous international surveillance systems that intercept trillions of private communications. I'll grant that if you include science fiction novels, there are a few contenders.

I agree with you that this extent of surveillance is a characteristic element of totalitarian regimes. But the things that totalitarian regimes do with the data they collect is different from what happens in the US right now (as far as I can tell).

All totalitarian regimes used broad surveillance, but not all countries that have overly broad surveillance programs are totalitarian. What's missing is the desire for total control of many different aspects of life and political activity.

However, I think that there is a great danger that "total information awareness" leads to an ever greater desire for total control. That desire may even come from the people and have superficial democratic legitimacy. If everyone knows that the government knows everything, the people will demand control over many things that other people do.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#105

Post by beshrkayali »

gyardley wrote: post #67
kome wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. Americans (from US) deserve a better and less provincial mainstream media. "Russia's Mark Zuckerberg" is a ridiculous title.

'Owner of Russian social network offers Edward Snowden a job' is pretty clunky, and if you titled the article 'Pavel Durov offers Edward Snowden a job', it would be meaningless for 99.99% of its American readers. The title as it is does a decent job conveying the contents. Or are Americans to be blamed for not knowing the owner of a social service hardly anyone here uses?

"Pavel Durov, founder of Russia's biggest social networking site, offers Snowden a job" could've worked. Of course "Americans" aren't to be blamed for this. I'm merely suggesting that they deserve better from media that is giving them a false culturally-superior image.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#106

Post by DanBC »

hobs wrote: post #71
DanBC wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expressing frustration at a sudden bunch of downvotes on a post that shouldn't have been downvoted is understandable. I'm in favour of down voting and I think people should be doing it a lot more on HN, but it is frustrating when reasonable posts are downvoted.

Reasonable posts? I dont even have the power to downvote, but I would if I could, Why? Because first its patronizing, >I really don't get how people can be so naive on HN. Let's talk about Snowden all day and wish we were more like Russia, where it's perfectly ok to say anything you want. No one said or implied this, simply that russian people were understanding there was something deeply wrong about the situation. >…

> I hope you can see where people would think this post adds very little to the discussion

Yes, but it's a crap link so all the posts are worthless.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#107

Post by [deleted] »

adestefan wrote: post #45
olalonde wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok, back to the echo chamber. 4 downvotes and this message disappears. Well, I do need to try occasionally. HN used to be a great site. I'm sorry but this kind of comment is what makes HN worse. From the HN guidelines: "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you."

Except they're correct. HN has always been an echo chamber and the groupthink here is thicker than most places.

[deleted]

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#108

Post by D9u »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #81
monsterix wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to dissuade or disagree with your thoughts, but your opinion about evilness of this program will change over time. For example, when you get stuck (God forbid) in an unwarranted situation or a legal hassle and then the same NSA program you passively protect now is used to check back on your past data/behavior and then pull out useful subjective information and taint you with phrases like "infamous former contract…

Well...I agree personal experience can be a powerful motivator for changing opinions. But what I'm saying is what I have found through researching it. As to my feelings for whether or not the NSA should be preserved vs. destroyed entirely - yes, I could see how personal experience could skew this. I, thankfully, haven't had such interference in my life. But I also want to point out I'm not protecting the NSA's PRISM…

(Ad hominems?) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6178980

You're assuming that I haven't actually done my homework and am making an off-the-cuff statement based upon media exposure, when the facts of this matter are that I have done my homework on this topic.

(Obama on domestic surveillance, 2007) http://youtu.be/ZVUwUCe1e-A

(Why we don't trust the government) https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/08/restoring_tru...

(The Terrorism Delusion) http://politicalscience.osu.edu/faculty/jmueller/absisfin.pd...

As the facts are, and looking at the situation objectively, the sustained reaction to the 9/11 incident is uncalled for, especially when the US has gone through previous decades which had seen exponentially more terrorist (lots of bombs) activity on US soil than any time since, yet back then the government didn't overreact and implement such excessive measures as we see today, in commercial airports where passengers are treated like criminals in a prison, in our electronic communications, and our financial records.

I, personally, have never called for the abolition of the NSA, but rather would like to see less intrusive measures employed instead of what they're doing now.

Where is the probable cause for the interception, collection, and storage of my electronic communications? Where is the probable cause showing that I might be a terrorist?

There are conditions which are supposed to be met when the government wants to violate my 4th Amendment rights, and to add an exception for "National Security," where no exception exists, equates to denial of civil rights, so when it's done on as massive a scale as we see case now it's a gross breach of the public trust and people have a right to voice their displeasure with the actions of their government.

To simply sweep this under the rug would be the most unpatriotic thing you could do, and justifying this obviously unpopular program by citing terrorism is disingenuous when viewed from a chronological perspective.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#109

Post by D9u »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #84
muyuu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAYS "YOU'RE RIDICULOUS" TO A PREVIOUS POSTER FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS WHINES ABOUT BEING THE TARGET OF AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK

...Really? Please don't yell - it's not conductive to making your point. I said "ridiculous" because it was a narrow, misinformed comment that failed to properly encapsulate the entire subject at hand. It wasn't representative of what's really going on in the political theater between Russia and the United States right now, e.g. no consideration of Russia's motives, positive impact of the NSA, how Russia would be hyp…

You defend your own ad hominems with more ad hominems? How do you know that I am misinformed? I've read everything that I can get my hands on regarding this subject.

Then you go on to confuse the sentiments of one Russian for the policies of an entire nation?

Who's being ridiculous here?

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#110

Post by Gonzih »

lvturner wrote: post #46
Gonzih wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know as much about Russia... Unfortunately I know about Russia too much. I totally agree with you, but from my point of view and with information that I'm getting about Russia I can't see how to look at that country from positive perspective.

Go visit Russia, it's hard to evaluate any country based on information gleaned from the outside. Edit: Actually, by visit, I mean go and live there for a while

I live in Belarus, so I think I can imagine what Russia is like (we have less issues in country, but most of negative aspects are same).
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