Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job. • Hacker News Board

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#81

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

monsterix wrote: post #77

dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

Not to dissuade or disagree with your thoughts, but your opinion about evilness of this program will change over time. For example, when you get stuck (God forbid) in an unwarranted situation or a legal hassle and then the same NSA program you passively protect now is used to check back on your past data/behavior and then pull out useful subjective information and taint you with phrases like "infamous former contract…

Well...I agree personal experience can be a powerful motivator for changing opinions. But what I'm saying is what I have found through researching it.

As to my feelings for whether or not the NSA should be preserved vs. destroyed entirely - yes, I could see how personal experience could skew this. I, thankfully, haven't had such interference in my life.

But I also want to point out I'm not protecting the NSA's PRISM et al. programs. I think they're too strong, and too obscured. But I do believe the NSA can replace them with more functional, transparent tools that will achieve the same goals. I also believe people are being swayed by big headlines and pathos arguments that prevent them from examining the NSA critically instead of passionately - I don't think it's as bad as everyone makes it seem.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#82

Post by danenania » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:24 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

danenania wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, secretly storing and analyzing the private communications and browsing history of everyone on the planet absolutely is evil. Doesn't matter what the reason is. If you don't understand this, there is something severely wrong with your moral compass.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

You are hand wringing over the details and completely missing the point. The most conservative possible interpretation of Snowden's leaks still leaves the NSA secretly spying on the private communications and online activity of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history.

If you find it difficult to see why this is morally abhorrent, I'm just not sure what to say you to you, as I think it would be quite apparent to the average 9 year old that deliberately spying on people who have done nothing to warrant suspicion is wrong.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#83

Post by insuffi » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #70

How about instead of stumbling about intellectually like a mob intent on hating the NSA, we set a few things straight: * This is not indicative of Russia as a collective endorsing or supporting Snowden. One man residing in Russia, a Russian national, offered Snowden a job relevant to his experience. This article says nothing about the public perception of Snowden in Russia. Anything else is supposition. All he has is…

Please note:

1) U.S. is 32nd in the world when it comes to freedom of the press. 2) U.S. is also pro-torture and quite clearly anti-human rights, with their judicial system being just as corrupt as Russia's, if not more(See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-judge-re...). I can go on and on about Gitmo, overthrowing foreign governments(Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Gaza strip) et cetera et cetera. U.S. doesn't really have a clean record when it comes to human rights abuses.

The only difference is that the U.S. hides behind "Justice!" propaganda and americans believe it, but everybody in eastern europe knows that Putin is quite clearly against democracy, and he doesn't try to hide it.

I'm not saying that Russia is better, I'm just saying that it's naive to think that U.S. is much better, with its imperialist politics (Assange/Sweden case and forcing a president's plane to land).

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#84

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

muyuu wrote: post #79

dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

SAYS "YOU'RE RIDICULOUS" TO A PREVIOUS POSTER FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS WHINES ABOUT BEING THE TARGET OF AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK

...Really? Please don't yell - it's not conductive to making your point.

I said "ridiculous" because it was a narrow, misinformed comment that failed to properly encapsulate the entire subject at hand. It wasn't representative of what's really going on in the political theater between Russia and the United States right now, e.g. no consideration of Russia's motives, positive impact of the NSA, how Russia would be hypocritical to endorse press freedom and citizen privacy, etc. etc. etc.

In fact, nothing about his comment was obvious - if you continue on through the thread, you can clearly see how my rebuttal dissects the entire view that Russia "gets" anything very sufficiently.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#85

Post by precisioncoder » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:27 PM UTC

oleganza wrote: post #49

precisioncoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I guess, after all it's basically just who runs the largest social network in the country. I guess Putin is the Obama of Russia in that he's the man in charge there.

Excuse me for anarchistic correction here. None of them is a man in charge. Both of them think of themselves as being "in charge". And maybe some "voters" even support that idea. But that does not change matters for those who didn't vote for or support them (including all foreign citizens). For them, Putin/Obama are just bullies from high school. Most of the time they don't have to do anything with your life, but som…

Sorry, I didn't mean to necessarily endorse either of them. I just mean if you check the fact sheets there's normally a field for "leader" which has their name listed after. Wiktionary gave me the following: "in charge (not comparable) Having the responsibility of leading or overseeing. He left his daughter in charge of watching her younger sisters. Having the power of command or control. This internet browser puts you in charge of your personal settings. "

Both of these men have a great deal of the power of command and control in their respective countries. The recent leaks have made it also very clear that they are "overseeing" heh. As for leadership that's a sticky subject that is way too philosophical for me to touch right now.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#86

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

insuffi wrote: post #83

dylangs1030 wrote: post #70

How about instead of stumbling about intellectually like a mob intent on hating the NSA, we set a few things straight: * This is not indicative of Russia as a collective endorsing or supporting Snowden. One man residing in Russia, a Russian national, offered Snowden a job relevant to his experience. This article says nothing about the public perception of Snowden in Russia. Anything else is supposition. All he has is…

Please note: 1) U.S. is 32nd in the world when it comes to freedom of the press. 2) U.S. is also pro-torture and quite clearly anti-human rights, with their judicial system being just as corrupt as Russia's, if not more(See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-judge-re... ). I can go on and on about Gitmo, overthrowing foreign governments(Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Gaza strip) et cetera et…

Thank you for the citations. I agree with you on all points, my point was simply that Russia is not a superlative example either. Both the U.S. and Russia are locked in a murky political limbo with all sorts of controversies, but neither should be a shining example to the other.

Russia has (as other commenters and myself noted elsewhere) historically been against privacy and press freedom when it's inconvenient for them, and has a host of other human rights violations. But you're right, I'm definitely not attacking Russia from a superior position as an American here :)

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#87

Post by jbooth » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

insuffi wrote: post #83

dylangs1030 wrote: post #70

How about instead of stumbling about intellectually like a mob intent on hating the NSA, we set a few things straight: * This is not indicative of Russia as a collective endorsing or supporting Snowden. One man residing in Russia, a Russian national, offered Snowden a job relevant to his experience. This article says nothing about the public perception of Snowden in Russia. Anything else is supposition. All he has is…

Please note: 1) U.S. is 32nd in the world when it comes to freedom of the press. 2) U.S. is also pro-torture and quite clearly anti-human rights, with their judicial system being just as corrupt as Russia's, if not more(See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-judge-re... ). I can go on and on about Gitmo, overthrowing foreign governments(Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Gaza strip) et cetera et…

We didn't throw the Dixie chicks in jail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot

I mean, the US has tons of problems and what's really disturbing are the trend lines -- seems like liberty peaked somewhere in the mid 70s with the CIA hearings.

But Russia being nicer than the US to US dissidents means nothing -- how do they act towards their own dissidents?

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#88

Post by insuffi » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #87

insuffi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note: 1) U.S. is 32nd in the world when it comes to freedom of the press. 2) U.S. is also pro-torture and quite clearly anti-human rights, with their judicial system being just as corrupt as Russia's, if not more(See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-judge-re... ). I can go on and on about Gitmo, overthrowing foreign governments(Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Gaza strip) et cetera et…

We didn't throw the Dixie chicks in jail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot I mean, the US has tons of problems and what's really disturbing are the trend lines -- seems like liberty peaked somewhere in the mid 70s with the CIA hearings. But Russia being nicer than the US to US dissidents means nothing -- how do they act towards their own dissidents?

Agreed. Jailing Pussy Riot was/is definitely a pursuit of political persecution.

Well, technically, Russia acted very lawfully in this case - they did not have an extradition treaty with the U.S., and Snowden sought political asylum.

I'd like to think that behind the scenes, Putin just enjoyed poking a stick in Obama's eye, but I'm sure he had more rational reasons for resisting the U.S. than just personal pleasure.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#89

Post by zzzeek » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #70

How about instead of stumbling about intellectually like a mob intent on hating the NSA, we set a few things straight: * This is not indicative of Russia as a collective endorsing or supporting Snowden. One man residing in Russia, a Russian national, offered Snowden a job relevant to his experience. This article says nothing about the public perception of Snowden in Russia. Anything else is supposition. All he has is…

> This article says nothing about the public perception of Snowden in Russia.

Except it does, paragraph eight:

> An opinion survey conducted by Russian news agency RIA Novosti shows 51% of Russians back Snowden's decision to leak the NSA information, and 43% were in favor of Russia granting him asylum, according to the Levada Center poll.

(edit: i appreciate the position you're defending here, re: reform vs. abolition, and how that is pretty tricky in this environment. the abolitionists here definitely have some tunnel vision issues going on).

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#90

Post by acomar » Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 2:42 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #82

dylangs1030 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

You are hand wringing over the details and completely missing the point. The most conservative possible interpretation of Snowden's leaks still leaves the NSA secretly spying on the private communications and online activity of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. If you find it difficult to see why this is morally abhorrent, I'm just not…

> It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history.

Really...? Come on now, that's totally unbacked by any analysis of history. I agree with you on the immorality, but hyperbole like that doesn't advance your case very well.