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Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

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Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#91

Post by shpxnvz »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #84
muyuu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAYS "YOU'RE RIDICULOUS" TO A PREVIOUS POSTER FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS WHINES ABOUT BEING THE TARGET OF AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK

...Really? Please don't yell - it's not conductive to making your point. I said "ridiculous" because it was a narrow, misinformed comment that failed to properly encapsulate the entire subject at hand. It wasn't representative of what's really going on in the political theater between Russia and the United States right now, e.g. no consideration of Russia's motives, positive impact of the NSA, how Russia would be hyp…

When you said "you're ridiculous" you attacked the poster rather than the opinion, which made that part of your comment ad-hominem. That statement, juxtaposed with your complaint immediately following about being subject to the same sort of attack was indeed rather humorous.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#92

Post by acomar »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #75
danenania wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, secretly storing and analyzing the private communications and browsing history of everyone on the planet absolutely is evil. Doesn't matter what the reason is. If you don't understand this, there is something severely wrong with your moral compass.

This is one of the few times I've seen a genuine ad hominem on Hacker News...thank you for attacking my "moral compass" instead of the substance of my argument. Now, to counter what you said - you're reaching by claiming the NSA "secretly stores and analyzes" the private communications of everyone on the planet. One interpretation of the materials originally leaked purports this, but there is also data contesting thi…

You're right on the details, and I agree with your analysis, but the moral question still stands. Do we as a society and nation have any right to do this? Why does our desire for security trump the rights of people at home and abroad? And why does having a conversation on this topic have to be so damn difficult -- all the details are kept secret, down to the interpretation of the laws that apparently allow for programs like these. There's something fundamentally messed up about all this.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#93

Post by danenania »

acomar wrote: post #90
danenania wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are hand wringing over the details and completely missing the point. The most conservative possible interpretation of Snowden's leaks still leaves the NSA secretly spying on the private communications and online activity of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. If you find it difficult to see why this is morally abhorrent, I'm just not…

> It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. Really...? Come on now, that's totally unbacked by any analysis of history. I agree with you on the immorality, but hyperbole like that doesn't advance your case very well.

Please point out any previous attempts to build ubiquitous international surveillance systems that intercept trillions of private communications.

I'll grant that if you include science fiction novels, there are a few contenders.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#94

Post by Expeck »

Gonzih wrote: post #24

I know that VKontakte is giving information and even messaging history about people to authorities on the first request. That what was happening in Belarus after election and protests related to "fair" election. People where requested to go to the KGB/Police. In "nice" conversation with "pleasant" people they saw messaging logs from VKontakte, movements history based on mobile phone data and etc. Requests from differ…

I dont know about that, but I know that he didnt cooperate with Fedaral Security Service:

>After mass anti-Kremlin protests broke out in the wake of the disputed December 2011 elections to the Russian parliament, the State Duma, Durov reportedly refused to comply with a request from the Federal Security Service (FSB) to block opposition groups from using the site. There appeared to be no immediate repercussions, but then in April of 2013, Durov was accused of hitting a traffic policeman with his car, with a video of the alleged incident appearing online. On April 16, VKontakte's main offices in central St. Petersburg were searched by police. Durov, who denies even owning a car, fled the country and has not been seen in public since. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#95

Post by danenania »

aurelius83 wrote: post #76
danenania wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, secretly storing and analyzing the private communications and browsing history of everyone on the planet absolutely is evil. Doesn't matter what the reason is. If you don't understand this, there is something severely wrong with your moral compass.

What exactly is your definition of evil? This seems like such a hyperbolic statement.

"The moment someone keeps an eye on what we do, we involuntarily make allowances for that eye, and nothing we do is truthful. Having a public, keeping a public in mind, means living in lies."

-Milan Kundera

I think this form of societal corruption is one of the greatest and most insidious evils a government can undertake. You should read some accounts by people who have lived under similar monitoring regimes.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#96

Post by simgidacav »

Semaphor wrote: post #62
simgidacav wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but there's nothing worse than boredom for a computer guy. And besides, protecting the user privacy is probably something he cares about.

> Yeah, but there's nothing worse than boredom for a computer guy. If he has no problems getting money, the boredom is easily alleviated by having access to a computer and internet. He could just work for himself.

True that. I would do the same after all... there's plenty of interesting stuff to work on.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#97

Post by sanderjd »

simias wrote: post #54
adestefan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they're correct. HN has always been an echo chamber and the groupthink here is thicker than most places.

It's been worse lately, I wish all political debates were banned in this place. IMO HN should be a technical forum first and foremost. There are plenty of places on the internet do discuss politics, this doesn't need to be one of them.

Honestly, here's the thing for me - I agree with your comment in theory, but in practice, I'm not so sure. This forum was never meant for politics, and I think it's a real bummer that a potentially large faction of the readership here will forever have a tarnished view of the discussion here due to the strong political bent of the last few weeks. But in practice, I really don't know where else to go to see smart people discuss this topic. I know lots of places to find lots of people loudly agreeing with each other on one side of the debate or another, and I know some places where people debate it with the I'm-more-stubborn-and-louder-than-you methodology. Certainly the discussion here has been guilty of both of those sins at times, but I've yet to find a forum with more adversarial but civil discussion than this one.

Suggestions?

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#98

Post by abecedarius »

acomar wrote: post #90
danenania wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are hand wringing over the details and completely missing the point. The most conservative possible interpretation of Snowden's leaks still leaves the NSA secretly spying on the private communications and online activity of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. If you find it difficult to see why this is morally abhorrent, I'm just not…

> It is a starkly totalitarian measure that is unparalleled in human history. Really...? Come on now, that's totally unbacked by any analysis of history. I agree with you on the immorality, but hyperbole like that doesn't advance your case very well.

Let's see, is it hyperbole?

An unabashedly totalitarian regime would spy on all its subjects, all the time, through every available channel. It would keep the details of its spying as secret as it can, while letting everyone know they're being watched. It looks like we have most of this, minus 'unabashedly': they claim they drop particular cases where they learn the people they're spying on are citizens within the borders who don't fit a long list of exceptions (crypto, etc.); and they're trying to hide the extent of spying. (On the other hand I don't consider secret courts to weigh much against the label 'totalitarian': the Soviets had that kind of thing, too.)

It could be unparalleled in either nature or extent. In nature, automated data mining is pretty new; in extent, the previous paradigm case, the Stasi, falls laughably short in some ways, while still far ahead in others (informers).

I think the quote isn't unreasonable, though it's loose.

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#99

Post by dmix »

weland wrote: post #21
D9u wrote: post #10

"In such moments one feels pride with our country and regret over the course taken by United States -- a country betraying the principles it was once built on," Even Russians get it... Why don't more Americans get it?

This painfully reminds me of George Carlin, who referred to the original artisans of his country -- in jest -- as "a bunch of white slaveowners who wanted to be free".

I understand this was in jest, but this comes up on HN often.

Slavery was introduced in America ~two centuries before the founding fathers had influence.

They were focused on the threat of authoritarianism/british rule, and failed to properly address their own complicit authoritarianism.

Very much like many people today who are all of a sudden concerned about the abuses of the "police state" aggressively targeting protesters and activists, when black communities have been harassed and targeted for decades (see the only domestic aerial bombing in US history targeting black activists in the 1980s [1] or recently "stop and frisk") with little public protest from white communities.

...or the difference in legal sentencing for crack cocaine vs powdered cocaine.

Racial hypocrisy is hardly a thing of the past in public discourse.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

Re: Russia's Mark Zuckerberg offers Snowden a job.

#100

Post by thuuuomas »

drone wrote: post #69
D9u wrote: post #10

"In such moments one feels pride with our country and regret over the course taken by United States -- a country betraying the principles it was once built on," Even Russians get it... Why don't more Americans get it?

Even Russians get it... Why don't more Americans get it? Get what? A large group of the American people are upset that the NSA was spying on its own citizens. There's a healthy, and sometimes rancorous discussion going on over here. Lawmakers are trying to tighten up laws, the cabinet is defensive, and the populace is arguing amongst its self. betraying the principles it was once built on... No, "the country" is not.…

You speak as though you know "what the principles of the United Sates actually are", but much like the maligned "annoying other programmer", you don't mention what these principles might be.
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