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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#141

Post by LockeWatts »

sequence7 wrote: post #134
belorn wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who work in CS are known to work with scientific methods. "What if" is simply not enough. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. We, that is people who work in the field of computer science, need to demand more than guesses and beliefs when dealing with "solutions" to gender inequality. If someone has an ideas…

In order to be testable there need to be a statistically significant number of women in CS programs so I assume from your comment that you arguing for them. Or are you saying that these programs need to scientifically prove their value before existing in order to exist?

>Or are you saying that these programs need to scientifically prove their value before existing in order to exist?

Your wording is disingenuous. It is possible to run a case study and study on a limited scale a program that would be deployed at a much larger scale.

Your statement implies the idea is tautologically false, which it is not.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#142

Post by newnewnew »

kaa2102 wrote: post #114
stygianguest wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is not about hate. That is only the most extreme form and hardly the most damaging kind (in our society; there's always genocide). Racism is the differentiation (discrimination) of people by race: assuming a black guy will not be into d&d. Even if it is statistically true, such stereotypes are damaging in two ways: (1) we wont invite him for a dnd session even if he would've loved it; and (2) the same person w…

I would say that racism is about hate, ignorance, and creating systematic barriers to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Women are considered a minority group; yet, white women still retain the privilege of being white. It sounds like the essay echoes the sentiment of being privileged and not wanting to be sub-grouped. I've noticed that some white friends didn't consider themselves to belong to any special "…

Is racism just about white privilege, though? In America, ethnic Indians and east Asians outperform all other ethnic groups on a host of metrics - income, criminality, education, and etc. Isn't there a huge Asian privilege in America that nobody is talking about? Why don't we talk about the Asian/White achievement gap?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#143

Post by Anechoic »

jimzvz wrote: post #99
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.

People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.

Really? Because self-segregation is pretty obvious in any number of contexts.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#144

Post by LockeWatts »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #90
ScottyE wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't force an interest in CS down people's throats. Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers and does nothing to promote CS to women who do not know about it. Like you say, kids are very perceptive. The only way to truly eradicate the stereotype is to create a world in which the stereotype doesn't exist. And that is done by giving all kids, regard…

>Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers I don't think this is true at all (and usually you never see women say this, just males rationalizing their position). Women centric CS events are to encourage those who have an interest but may have been hesitant for some reason to seek it out. Or to encourage those who are students to seek help and find comraderi…

>The difference is that girls have an immediate re-enforcing explanation for that sense of being out of place: you don't belong because you're a woman

How is this different from guys who go, "They're so ahead of me. I'm out of place, because they are all smarter than me"?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#145

Post by mitchty »

minamea wrote: post #128
mitchty wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I understand what you're saying about the "women only or prioritization". But, and note I'm obviously a guy, you're assuming the worst possible reasoning for this. Lets say the whole thing is trying to reverse the course direction of CS to help get more women in the field. We know that having equal amounts of both genders helps and strengthens teams. So while the preferential hiring of women might at first glance…

I believe what's morally wrong is morally wrong and should not be done. Someone could speculate that the US would be better off with the cheap labour of slaves but that's morally wrong so we'll stop doing it period. I don't care why you're hiring a gender over another. In my humble opinion it's wrong and should stop.

That is a bit too one sided for my tastes. Concerte example time:

If you're a hiring manager and have 4 white males on a team, do you really need another white male? Probably not, is it morally wrong to want a female on the team or say a non white male? I cannot see why it would be. Especially when we now know based on current research that even if the candidate is technically worse than another, the overall team benefits from the different viewpoints more than a "star" developer.

Again, I am not in agreement this is at all a moral decision from a hiring point of view or overall as a community/CS viewpoint. Why is it wrong to hire for better performance? Why is it wrong to want more females in CS? Most importantly, how does that conflate to being a morality tale? The latter question would be aided here in you explaining your philosophical underpinnings of why a single gender meetup to get more of that underrepresented gender in the community as being morally wrong.

The slave analogy is off base for this particular situation.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#146

Post by [deleted] »

cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

[deleted]

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#147

Post by jimzvz »

snowwrestler wrote: post #115
jimzvz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why immediately assume that the idea comes from environmental factors?

Where else do ideas come from?

Well perhaps, at the moment, she is only interested in it because it is what you do and is using the argument that it is a boy's thing to convey that to you.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#148

Post by eric_the_read »

danilocampos wrote: post #108
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. Demographic dramatically over-represented in government, corporate boards, startup founders, growth industries, etc unconcerned about status quo. And there's the problem.

I read it as, "I'm not sure this is the best way to solve the problem," which is a very different thing to "there isn't a problem," or "the problem isn't all that important."

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#149

Post by eric_the_read »

danilocampos wrote: post #108
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. Demographic dramatically over-represented in government, corporate boards, startup founders, growth industries, etc unconcerned about status quo. And there's the problem.

I read it as, "I'm not sure this is the best way to solve the problem," which is a very different thing to "there isn't a problem," or "the problem isn't all that important."

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#150

Post by Anechoic »

ufmace wrote: post #78

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example: There are a number of other fields that are consistently dominated by women in the way that programming and CS are by men. Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields? Is there some "…

* Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields?*

There are efforts: http://www.menteach.org/ http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nurs...

You're not looking hard enough.

(this was by no means a comprehensive search, the above links were found with ~45 secs of Googling).

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