Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On being a girl in computer science - a confession

zanytomato.tumblr.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 305 posts

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#101

Post by calibraxis »

applecore wrote: post #44
calibraxis wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I'm told, female-only events can work well, because males tend to actively reinforce patriarchy. We are trained to, and often need to be deprogrammed to simply be aware of it. (Just consider our gendered dress codes. Many men would actually consider suicide rather than publicly wear "female" clothes. Most would be kicked out of their workplaces if they showed up in such dress.) So, it is only logical to consider v…

I can't tell if you're joking or not. Or maybe I'm just reinforcing the patriarchy.

If you think that's strange, I personally consider CoffeeScript preferable to JavaScript, and some Lisps easier to think in than all the other programming languages. No stranger to ridicule and disbelief. :)

(Which reminds me a bit about how the author is alienated from fellow females. How many of us feel alienated from our fellow programmers? Or fellow males, if you're male? Ever look at world events, and see humanity as a bit... strange? Realizing that, statistically speaking, you yourself almost certainly have many strange beliefs too, for being a member of such groups?)

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#102

Post by cletus »

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?"

Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?"

I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe that any discrimination for one group is discrimination against another (which, incidentally, is axiomatically true). Many in this camp believe that lowering standards for one group encourages a perception that any member of that group did less to get where they are (correct or not).

The other side believe that an artificial environment needs to be created to correct an imbalance. Rooted in this principle there is often a belief that this situation only exists because of artificially created and perpetuated gender roles.

Personally I believe that gender imbalance in this (and other) professions is only indirectly related to gender.

In this post as one data point, the author notes that she felt socially isolated from other girls. The question then is: is this because she didn't share the same interests as her peers or did she develop separate interests because of this social isolation? I suspect the answer is a little of both.

The stereotype of an engineer is that of a judgmental introvert, two traits that tend to negatively correlate with having many social connections. Of course this stereotype isn't universal but we're talking about patterns in a large group, not specific individuals. If such personality traits are causative (rather than simply being correlated) in choosing CS as a career, you then need to ask if there is a gender basis for these traits? Males and females form very different social structures when left to their own devices.

For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#103

Post by belorn »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #43
gonehome wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that ignoring it isn't the solution. I don't really think exclusive events are the solution either and I'm not convinced they don't make things worse. Tech events shouldn't exclude either gender and when they do (or have events/do things that make one group uncomfortable) they should be called out on it.

The problem is there isn't anything we can do to change your typical tech gathering/event to not be intimidating or uncomfortable for a large number of girls. It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls. The intimidation factor is something that cannot be fixed at this level. It's not just a matter of banning certain types of humor.

> It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls.

Isn't that an argument that all schools should then be boy/girl schools, always separating kids based on their sex? After all, this is the most effective model right?

If schools has gone away from this model, I assume they had a good reason. We also used to separate women from men in the work place. That too was changed in the last 100 years. Business somehow decided that productivity went up if did not separate people based on their sex.

If we moved away from this in both schools and work, why are we then trying to reintroduce it again with the same argument they had a hundred years ago? Is there any exceptional detail that only computer science has?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#104

Post by edmccard »

davidroberts wrote: post #45

If you look at the real pioneers of computer science, people like Turing and Babbage, two women jump right off the page: Ada Byron and Grace Hopper. Women belong in CS, because it belongs to them. They were there at the start, just as much as the men. As a 55-year-old man, I'm pretty sure I've experienced discrimination because of my age. Situations where people couldn't see beyond the wrinkles and gray hair and see…

>Each generation of CS pioneers includes a few more women with passion and intellect like Hopper or Bryon that cannot be ignored,

So your message to, say, young women who are facing barriers to success in CS is "Be one of the most exceptional women in the field, or wait a few generations until successful women in CS are no longer exceptions?"

When someone with a desire to become a programmer can say to themself "I can achieve some level of success _even if I'm not the greatest programmer of my generation_", that's a good thing. Exceptional role models are nice to have, but so are "average" role models. "Women in CS" programs might increase the latter, and I don't see how they could decrease the former, so I don't think such programs can just be written off as "not the answer".

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#105

Post by gonehome »

edmccard wrote: post #75
gonehome wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a difficult problem and I don't pretend to know the answer. I do think that these kind of separate events may do more harm than good.

Do you think they will result in fewer women in CS? Or is it some other kind of harm?

I think it's a little more insidious than that. It refocuses the issue to gender and suggests you're special in tech not because of what you've done or want to do, but simply because of what you are. I think this devalues the accomplishments by focusing on an unimportant aspect.

It subtly suggests (unintentionally) that girls can't make it on their own and require this extra help - which I think reinforces the sexist stereotypes that are the core problem. Intimidation, feelings of inferiority and difficulty with work are universal issues, I don't think excluding people by sex is necessary.

There's also the very non-zero chance that I'm underestimating the value women get out of these events, but exclusion based on gender just does seem like the best way to go about it. Maybe it's just that nobody likes to feel left out.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#106

Post by duaneb »

vxNsr wrote: post #72
noonespecial wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

I would answer pop culture, if she's watched any Disney show or movie ever, it immediately shows her exactly what is "acceptable" for a girl to do (Grrr, I hate Disney and that is gonna be the one channel I will never let my children watch, not to say there aren't worse channels but Disney is consistently bad). Someone (in the HN community) should do an in-depth blog post about how pop culture screws up our children'…

You should watch Disney movies with your kid and discuss them. Ignorance won't stop anything.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#107

Post by hackinthebochs »

andrewflnr wrote: post #97
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

It's not a choice between ignoring or "tackling it head on". In the early days of tackling some kind of systemic bias, it makes sense to talk about it all the time. Now that most everyone agrees it's a problem, it seems (to me) like the most productive way to move forward is to only point out sexism in specific instances where it occurs, providing reinforcement to help change our mental habits, making pariahs of pers…

I think you're conflating issues here. There is a point where continually beating the drum about overt sexism in the field becomes counter productive. But this is a different issue. Having women-centric CS events arent necessarily about shielding women from male sexism, but about creating environments where they won't feel intimidated and can commiserate with others who are experiencing or have experienced the same issues. Like I said in another comment, countering the gender stereotypes against women in hard science and engineering fields isn't about banning certain types of humor. The problem goes much deeper than that.

>But who could get away with an explicitly guy-only CS event? It would be politically difficult to say the least. Something is clearly wrong here.

I really wish people would stop trotting out this shallow argument when discussing inequality in various spheres. The contexts for the two groups are completely different, thus a simple "swapping the two labels and seeing what results" gives absolutely no insight.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#108

Post by danilocampos »

cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is.

Demographic dramatically over-represented in government, corporate boards, startup founders, growth industries, etc unconcerned about status quo.

And there's the problem.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#109

Post by jimzvz »

noonespecial wrote: post #60
mindcrime wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

Why immediately assume that the idea comes from environmental factors?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#110

Post by neilk »

aortega wrote: post #94

IMHO Women are doing great in CS. They are not doing great in 20 hs/day crazy devops/IT work that nowadays passes for CS, that only men from 20-30 can endure. Edit: Right, women also can physically endure the developer death march, it's just they don't want to. And I don't blame them.

s/can/want to/;

When it comes to "going to war" for some cause, men are very programmable, especially when we're young.

Post reply on HN