I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…
On being a girl in computer science - a confession
111–120 of 305 posts
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#112The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…
> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.
It's easy to poke theoretical holes in any proposed change...but the status quo should not get a pass just because we're used to it.
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is there isn't anything we can do to change your typical tech gathering/event to not be intimidating or uncomfortable for a large number of girls. It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls. The intimidation factor is something that cannot be fixed at this level. It's not just a matter of banning certain types of humor.
> It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls. Isn't that an argument that all schools should then be boy/girl schools, always separating kids based on their sex? After all, this is the most effective model right? If schools has gone away from this model, I assume they had a good reason. We also used to separate women from men in the work place. That too was changed in the las…
It might be, and I'm not completely sure it isn't the best model.
But work environments are totally different situation. School is an exception because it is at a time where kids are in their formative years, thus creating artificial environments that are maximally conductive to learning is appropriate (which is what "school" is to begin with).
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?
Racism is not about hate. That is only the most extreme form and hardly the most damaging kind (in our society; there's always genocide). Racism is the differentiation (discrimination) of people by race: assuming a black guy will not be into d&d. Even if it is statistically true, such stereotypes are damaging in two ways: (1) we wont invite him for a dnd session even if he would've loved it; and (2) the same person w…
The point of the Civil Rights movement, the Voting Rights Act, and implementation of affirmative action policies was that hatred and bigotry gave way to the people creating barriers that prevented minorities from pursuing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Affirmative action is needed because the impact of centuries of systemic discrimination cannot be undone in just one generation.
The solution to ending racism, homophobia, and sexism cannot be to ignore these evils. Shine a light on them.
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.
Why immediately assume that the idea comes from environmental factors?
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not a choice between ignoring or "tackling it head on". In the early days of tackling some kind of systemic bias, it makes sense to talk about it all the time. Now that most everyone agrees it's a problem, it seems (to me) like the most productive way to move forward is to only point out sexism in specific instances where it occurs, providing reinforcement to help change our mental habits, making pariahs of pers…
I think you're conflating issues here. There is a point where continually beating the drum about overt sexism in the field becomes counter productive. But this is a different issue. Having women-centric CS events arent necessarily about shielding women from male sexism, but about creating environments where they won't feel intimidated and can commiserate with others who are experiencing or have experienced the same i…
This is an argument that has been used by most proponents of discriminatory practices.
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#117http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g032MPrSjFA I think this video, even though referring to the general sciences instead of CS alone demonstrates the issue as clearly as it is cringe worthy.
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#118I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…
Assuming the goal is to provide equal opportunity for those that were unlikely to have the same advantages as others through their childhood, I think making this distinction by race instead of socio-economic standing perpetuates a lot of racism. It suggests someone is disadvantaged simply because of their race. While it creates an ethnically diverse student body it doesn't create a class diverse student body (so it's a bit of a pseudo diversity).
Using a socio-economic standard you abstract away the race issue and give an advantage to those who have less money which has a stronger correlation to actually having less opportunity. This also creates a more diverse student body as well.
There is one very important reason it had to originally be done by race - the choosers in the original system were racist.
If admissions is racist then you can't do it by socio-economic standing because they'll just only pick whatever race they prefer. To make the switch you have to be able to determine that the choosers are no longer racist.
It's another hard problem, but I'm not entirely sure I understand the connection to this issue. If the comparison is that women should be given an advantage because they're disadvantaged technically I'd think that is exactly the sexism that's the core problem - and is unfair to the women who are really great.
Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession
#119The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…
> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.