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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#31

Post by aaronyo »

Thanks for writing this article!

There's a lot here that seems to apply to equality in general, not just gender equality.

I have two daughters, bi-racial. I struggle with what I think the ideal world should look like and what our actual world needs to look like, today. For example, if there were not a historic misbelief that women are not good at math, there would be no reason to go out of our way to make women only events. But it happened, and it lingers. So I wonder -- how many women have a story about how these women-targeted events helped to open some doors? Def seems like we've swung too far sometimes, but what's the right middle ground?

At home I go for the ideal. My wife and I don't bring up race and gender. We don't attach it to things. My daughters are still under 4, so this is easy. I wouldn't want to say, "girls can do it, too" because I agree with the author -- the effect would be opposite of the intended one. But some day, there eyes will be opened to all those ignorant ideas, and the imperfect "bandaids" that we have. I mean, hell, they already get party bags that are "for girls, not the boy ones." They are already being influenced in ways they can't comprehend.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#33

Post by javajosh » 

   1. What's the CS gender ratio? Assuming it's bad...
   2. Is it bad because anyone is actively discouraging girls?
   3. Is it bad because girls just tend not to like it?
This post assumes #1, undermines those who claim #2 (anecdotally), and reenforces #3.

And I find this very, very easy to believe.

Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get through it. The arrogance is a craving for the kind of exceptionalism that any wannabe astronaut (the author and myself included, of course) understands quite well. By being a girl in CS the OP got a double-dose of exceptionalism: she was mastering something hard, and she was unique. (That other girl in CS class...grrr!)

Anyway, the punchline is that we should be aware of #2 and keep a lid on that, but recognize at least the possibility that we're fighting nature here, and that #3 may have a grain of truth. We are all arrogant masochists together, no matter our race, creed, or gender!

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#34

Post by Evbn »

colmvp wrote: post #26
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

"It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against." In numerous tech offices/companies I've visited in the Bay Area and New York, I've met more foreign born white male programmers than African American male and Hispanic American male programmers put together. And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS…

Start an Asian outreach effort. Get in touch with some Asian CxOs. (I worked for an Asian CxO once. So did everyone at Zappos.)

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#35

Post by aln »

CognitiveLens wrote: post #19
aln wrote: post #13

"What if we just taught our kids about what computers can do, and worked toward a healthy appreciation for how vital computer science is to society and to a successful career, and then left them to decide on their own careers?" I completely agree. My proposed solution (that would probably work): teach basic cs in middle schools so it becomes as normal as chemistry, biology, physics, math, social studies, and english-…

I'm not sure your logic follows through - just because something is taught in middle school doesn't make it gender neutral. Most of the subjects you mention have similar gender issues to what is presented here, with similar discussions taking place in related communities. The problem goes deeper than just introducing the material at an appropriate age.

Teaching something to kids at a young age certainly does not make the whole industry gender neutral, but it allows girls and boys to learn something together, lessening the bias that they will learn when older and logically able to understand the gender inequality in any specific industry (and hopefully by the time they are actually that old, the ratio will have lessened). And yes, other industries might be facing the same issues, but the numbers are certainly not as depressing as the ones in CS and CS related fields.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#36

Post by gonehome »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I agree that ignoring it isn't the solution.

I don't really think exclusive events are the solution either and I'm not convinced they don't make things worse. Tech events shouldn't exclude either gender and when they do (or have events/do things that make one group uncomfortable) they should be called out on it.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#37

Post by dreamfactory »

minamea wrote: post #18
mitchty wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world. I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp…

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

> I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied.

If that were a real policy (which I don't think it is), I suppose the point is that even then the odds would be against it impacting you as there are so few women applicants.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#38

Post by kelnos »

jfoster wrote: post #30
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?

I wouldn't characterize racism as hatred only. There are many more subtle (even sometimes unconscious) forms of racism. Racism runs the whole spectrum from ignorant misconceptions all the way up to irrational hatred.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#39

Post by solistice »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #29
stcredzero wrote: post #12

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports. EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction. I'm self-taught via the internet. On many remote projects, I see neither my clients nor any coworkers for months. I don't care about meet-ups or conferences. It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education Now if you are talking about programming communities , then I…

"U a gurl on ze interwebs? I call le fake". Maybe it's that kind of attitude. I find it intresting that "No girls on the internet" originally meant "No gender bias on the internet", but the meaning was perverted. But statements like that (I sometimes make them myself in jest, but you never know how the opposite side will interpret it),they just add to the exclusion of girls in programming.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#40

Post by hackinthebochs »

jfoster wrote: post #30
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?

I can agree that its less self-perpetuating than racism is. But the root cause of imbalances in tech is also very pervasive, as it is a product of gender stereotypes in the wider culture. Gender stereotypes are certainly self-perpetuating: young kids internalize what they learn and then perpetuate that behavior as they become older. So to break that cycle requires direct intervention to prevent shaming for girls who don't like stereotypical activities, and to allow other girls to sample things that they otherwise would not have thought open to them. A part of this intervention is to get more positive female role-models in tech and hard science fields. Direct outreach to older girls by creating (admittedly artificial) learning environments that they will be more comfortable in will help with this. These artificial environments aren't a solution, but they can be a stepping stone for girls who would otherwise be too intimidated to give it a try otherwise.
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