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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#11

Post by mitchty »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world.

I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp edges people view from our world.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#12

Post by stcredzero »

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports.

EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#13

Post by aln »

"What if we just taught our kids about what computers can do, and worked toward a healthy appreciation for how vital computer science is to society and to a successful career, and then left them to decide on their own careers?"

I completely agree. My proposed solution (that would probably work): teach basic cs in middle schools so it becomes as normal as chemistry, biology, physics, math, social studies, and english- that way, kids wouldn't denote the subject as a particularly male or female oriented path and would simply see it as a stepping stone to another possible career. But we would need more knowledgeable teachers...and more teachers in general.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#14

Post by NoahTheDuke »

cwzwarich wrote: post #10

@PLT_Zizek the platitude that male sexism is keeping women from entering CS only reinforces the notion that the field belongs to men by default https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek/status/212662401525481472

So what's a good solution? Sounds like a snappy idea with no meat.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#15

Post by Scaevolus »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

Is it worse than nothing? The logic seems to be: have imbalance partially caused by stereotypes -> encourage minority to lessen imbalance -> hope stereotypes change and balance becomes self-sustaining.

Shifting cultures is hard. Lacking perfect solutions, maybe plausible ones will suffice?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#16

Post by niggler »

Hedy Lamarr (for those not familiar, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr) stands out as a woman who excelled in the "nerdy" aspects as well as the more "feminine" aspects. And she was involved long before it was treated as more mainstream, when her environment was more adherent to social norms than the world of 2013.

How did she break the norms, and why don't we see more women following her example?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#17

Post by aln »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

There are good and bad qualities to the CS events catered towards women. I think they are good for women of certain age groups (maybe 18 and older?) who might have been discouraged from or misinformed about the field. For young girls, these events are probably unnecessary and reinforce the stereotypes.

The events and boot camps made specifically for women to learn to code/learn about various opportunities are great, but I would hate for young girls to attend these events and learn about the gender inequality in case they weren't even aware of it.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#18

Post by minamea »

mitchty wrote: post #11
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world. I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp…

> Could it be taken too far?

But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism.

I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gender.

Every time I hear about a company spending money on CS help for women or "prioritizing hiring women" I cringe, but the HN community seems to readily accept and celebrate those posts.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#19

Post by CognitiveLens »

aln wrote: post #13

"What if we just taught our kids about what computers can do, and worked toward a healthy appreciation for how vital computer science is to society and to a successful career, and then left them to decide on their own careers?" I completely agree. My proposed solution (that would probably work): teach basic cs in middle schools so it becomes as normal as chemistry, biology, physics, math, social studies, and english-…

I'm not sure your logic follows through - just because something is taught in middle school doesn't make it gender neutral. Most of the subjects you mention have similar gender issues to what is presented here, with similar discussions taking place in related communities.

The problem goes deeper than just introducing the material at an appropriate age.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#20

Post by bluedanieru »

This is the standard argument against affirmative action as well. Of course affirmative action is more about addressing pay inequality and discriminatory hiring practices, while the focus of this post is more around changing cultural attitudes toward certain activities. Is it possible to separate the two? That is, to have laws in place which will address the historical wrongs while simultaneously building a culture of inclusion?

And of course, the argument for continuing to do this inclusive workshop bullshit (you can tell I'm sympathetic to the author's point), is that while the gender bias persists active effort must be taken against it. So, how do you know when you're done? And, how do you measure your progress? No one answers these questions.

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