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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#21

Post by lizzard »

taeric wrote: post #2

Similarly, I have to confess I am a little worried about this with my daughter. It is ridiculously clear that she does not do your stereotypical girl activities already at the age of 3. To the point that some of the boys in her "pre-k" class have actually thought that spiderman was a girl's thing. For the most part, my wife and I both think this is hilarious. And we are fine letting her do whatever she wants. However…

Sure it will bother her some at some point, but be supportive and give her good options, that's the best you can do! Cannot fix society all the way immediately... but you can give her confidence and courage.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#22

Post by vacri »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

If the balance were more even, sure, I'd agree with you. But until there's a head of steam for things to progress naturally, it does need an artificial poke. The problem wasn't solving itself before these kind of events.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#23

Post by vacri »

niggler wrote: post #16

Hedy Lamarr (for those not familiar, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr ) stands out as a woman who excelled in the "nerdy" aspects as well as the more "feminine" aspects. And she was involved long before it was treated as more mainstream, when her environment was more adherent to social norms than the world of 2013. How did she break the norms, and why don't we see more women following her example?

Not everyone has a strong force of will to go against societal norms. Any recipe for the everyday person is going to be spoiled by "you just need the personality of extraordinary person X"

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#24

Post by hackinthebochs »

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we bring it up or not. The only way to compensate is to tackle it head-on. This means defining it, explaining why its wrong, and taking steps to mitigate its effects. Girl-centric CS activities are an appropriate way of counteracting these pervasive gender stereotypes. Ignoring it will not make it go away.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#25

Post by cwzwarich »

NoahTheDuke wrote: post #14
cwzwarich wrote: post #10

@PLT_Zizek the platitude that male sexism is keeping women from entering CS only reinforces the notion that the field belongs to men by default https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek/status/212662401525481472

So what's a good solution? Sounds like a snappy idea with no meat.

It's a parody Twitter account.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#26

Post by colmvp »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

"It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against."

In numerous tech offices/companies I've visited in the Bay Area and New York, I've met more foreign born white male programmers than African American male and Hispanic American male programmers put together. And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS in the US, I rarely see them in C-level positions in tech companies (say as CTOs) even compared to females. Yet I don't see or read nearly as many articles about initiatives in the tech industry to help any of those minorities increase their participation or break glass ceilings.

And so as a minority, it kind of annoys me that I just get grouped with the so-called dominant segment of 'men' when I feel my and other races are under-represented in different ways. This especially comes out whenever there are tech meetups that are exclusive to women.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#27

Post by mindcrime »

stcredzero wrote: post #12

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports. EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically.

I'm not sure that's true, or - if it is true - that it's relevant. For one, because programming was very female centric in the past. There was already a time when most programmers were women, and we've heard very little - if any - argument presented to support the idea that women were systematically weeded out of the CS world. There also doesn't seem to be a lot of support for the idea that there are all these women out there, desperately jonesing to break into this world, but being denied the opportunity, thanks to the "old boys club" putting up a wall.

OBC's are certainly problematic, and there may be an element of that at work here, but I suspect that the reason women are under-represented in this world is something different. If I had to guess (which is all I can really do), I'd guess that it's more about cultural stereotyping, peer pressure, etc., than anything.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#28

Post by gonehome »

Scaevolus wrote: post #15
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

Is it worse than nothing? The logic seems to be: have imbalance partially caused by stereotypes -> encourage minority to lessen imbalance -> hope stereotypes change and balance becomes self-sustaining. Shifting cultures is hard. Lacking perfect solutions, maybe plausible ones will suffice?

It's a difficult problem and I don't pretend to know the answer. I do think that these kind of separate events may do more harm than good.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#29

Post by gurkendoktor »

stcredzero wrote: post #12

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports. EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction. I'm self-taught via the internet. On many remote projects, I see neither my clients nor any coworkers for months. I don't care about meet-ups or conferences. It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education Now if you are talking about programming communities, then I guess I agree. But the bigger question is why so few women are interested in programming in the first place.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#30

Post by jfoster »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?
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