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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#131
post #106
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would answer pop culture, if she's watched any Disney show or movie ever, it immediately shows her exactly what is "acceptable" for a girl to do (Grrr, I hate Disney and that is gonna be the one channel I will never let my children watch, not to say there aren't worse channels but Disney is consistently bad). Someone (in the HN community) should do an in-depth blog post about how pop culture screws up our children'…

You should watch Disney movies with your kid and discuss them. Ignorance won't stop anything.

Why call out Disney for such special treatment. Should he do similar with the Rambo series?

Not watching Disney movies seems like a perfectly reasonable response to the content of Disney movies. There is no shortage of other things to watch.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#132

If you look at the real pioneers of computer science, people like Turing and Babbage, two women jump right off the page: Ada Byron and Grace Hopper. Women belong in CS, because it belongs to them. They were there at the start, just as much as the men. As a 55-year-old man, I'm pretty sure I've experienced discrimination because of my age. Situations where people couldn't see beyond the wrinkles and gray hair and see…

CS should belong to women as much as men and in an ideal world it would. But you're 55, how much has the percentage of women in CS increased since you were 21?

That is a slightly disingenuous question because I know the answer which is that it hasn't, it has in fact fallen. While I wish your argument were true it is clearly not.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#133
post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is.

It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software engineering (or engineering generally).

One of the things the whole "affirmative action" debate ignores, on both sides, is that cultures are self-perpetuating, but affirmative action can move cultures to new, self-sustaining equillibria. The lack of women is by itself something that creates a barrier to entry for women, and once the ratio is corrected through affirmative means, the new equilibrium becomes self-perpetuating.

I'll use as an example the profession of accounting. Accounting, like CS, has a perception of being introverted and nerdy. Yet, 45-50% of the employees at Big 4 accounting firms are women. Across the field, 20% of all partners are women, and more importantly, 43% of new partners are women (http://suite101.com/article/accounting-is-becoming-a-womans-...). But there is no affirmative action for women in accountancy. It's not easier to get a job at PWC or E&Y as a woman. The affirmative action is no longer necessary--because women aren't self-selecting out of the profession, firms don't need to dip down to get equally qualified candidates.

The legal field saw a similar shift as a result of affirmative action for women. In a field that used to be an "old boy's club" half of new associates are women and 30% of new partners are women (http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/2012/01/report-30-o...). But at least at the associate level there is no affirmative action any longer--the new equilibrium is self-perpetuating. It's self-perpetuating because balancing the gender ratio changed the culture in a way that made the profession attractive to women. And you know what? The culture is better. It's modern and professional. There is nothing intrinsic about smoking and dirty jokes that made you better at the practice of law, and frankly there is nothing intrinsic about playing WoW in your spare time that makes you better at programming.

So your dichotomy about "meritocracy" is short-sighted. There is nothing "meritocratic" about indulging male culture to keep a field male-dominated. Indeed, that's anti-meritocratic. Affirmative action, ironically, by balancing gender ratios can move the culture in a direction where you can have true meritocracy--where women don't self-select out of a profession because they don't want to be the minority, and where in the long run you don't have to dip down to get qualified women because the qualified women aren't turned away by the male-dominated culture.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#134
post #96
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if "woman in CS" programs can help to get woman with intellect and passion into CS?

People who work in CS are known to work with scientific methods. "What if" is simply not enough. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. We, that is people who work in the field of computer science, need to demand more than guesses and beliefs when dealing with "solutions" to gender inequality. If someone has an ideas…

In order to be testable there need to be a statistically significant number of women in CS programs so I assume from your comment that you arguing for them.

Or are you saying that these programs need to scientifically prove their value before existing in order to exist?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#135
post #121
post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> The other side believe that an artificial environment needs to be created to correct an imbalance. Rooted in this principle there is often a belief that this situation only exists because of artificially created and perpetuated gender roles. If you're referring to affirmative action, the other side is more akin to the belief that without corrective action of some sort, that there will never be a fair environment in…

When people talk about meritocracy, they are thinking of a competition between individuals. When you assert that it's a competition between races, or between sexes, or between other social groups, the concept of meritocracy doesn't even apply any more.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#136
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.

Can we please let the women speak for themselves? I absolutely abhor when white people tell me that as a black person I should not want scholarships/education programs/tutoring/etc geared specifically towards people of my background.

Are you suggesting that we cannot debate this issue unless we are female? Because, if so, then you need to copy and paste your comment on 90% of the comments in this thread including your own. (I assume you are not a women because you said "Can WE please let the women speak for themselves?")

Or are you suggesting that us males are only not allowed to debate when we believe that special treatment of women is actually detrimental to them and everyone else?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#138
post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software e…

>So your dichotomy about "meritocracy" is short-sighted. There is nothing "meritocratic" about indulging male culture to keep a field male-dominated. Indeed, that's anti-meritocratic

I don't see how a blind meritocracy is indulging male culture. Isn't the whole point of a meritocracy the idea that the only thing it cares about is performance?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#139
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please let the women speak for themselves? I absolutely abhor when white people tell me that as a black person I should not want scholarships/education programs/tutoring/etc geared specifically towards people of my background.

Are you suggesting that we cannot debate this issue unless we are female? Because, if so, then you need to copy and paste your comment on 90% of the comments in this thread including your own. (I assume you are not a women because you said " Can WE please let the women speak for themselves? ") Or are you suggesting that us males are only not allowed to debate when we believe that special treatment of women is actuall…

I am suggesting we not make self-serving assertions about how women should feel. There is debating and then there is putting words in other people's mouths that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. If women themselves are not making this type of argument, men have no place in making it on their behalf.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#140
post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

On somewhat of a tangential note affirmative action is an interesting issue. Assuming the goal is to provide equal opportunity for those that were unlikely to have the same advantages as others through their childhood, I think making this distinction by race instead of socio-economic standing perpetuates a lot of racism. It suggests someone is disadvantaged simply because of their race. While it creates an ethnically…

Using a socio-economic standard you abstract away the race issue and give an advantage to those who have less money which has a stronger correlation to actually having less opportunity.

The problem wrt to race and using a socio-economic standard is that there are almost as many whites in poverty as there are black people in total in the USA (~33 million vs ~38 million according to wiki). There is also the issue that even when accounting for socio-economic status, there is still real discrimination (Pager's Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market points out that a white job applicant with a criminal record is more likely to get a job call back than a black job applicant without a criminal record even when qualifications are normalized).

Just looking at socio-economic characteristics doesn't solve the problem.

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