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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#61

Post by rsofaer »

niggler wrote: post #16

Hedy Lamarr (for those not familiar, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr ) stands out as a woman who excelled in the "nerdy" aspects as well as the more "feminine" aspects. And she was involved long before it was treated as more mainstream, when her environment was more adherent to social norms than the world of 2013. How did she break the norms, and why don't we see more women following her example?

Norms don't necessarily get weaker over time. Some, like computers being for men, have gotten stronger.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#62

Post by stcredzero »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #29
stcredzero wrote: post #12

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports. EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction. I'm self-taught via the internet. On many remote projects, I see neither my clients nor any coworkers for months. I don't care about meet-ups or conferences. It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education Now if you are talking about programming communities , then I…

> Except that it is a "club" with absolutely zero obligatory social interaction.

That might be a strike against it. If there's only contexts where you're a faceless entity on the other side of the Internet, or you stick out like a sore thumb when you are present in the boy's club, then I could see why some would feel it daunting to get involved.

> It is really hard to understand what is making it harder for women to do a job like mine. (My guess is that the education

I've met three different women who started programming in grade school, but who didn't become programmers because they didn't want to.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#63

Post by bogger »

colmvp wrote: post #26
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

"It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against." In numerous tech offices/companies I've visited in the Bay Area and New York, I've met more foreign born white male programmers than African American male and Hispanic American male programmers put together. And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS…

"And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS in the US, I rarely see them in C-level positions in tech companies (say as CTOs) even compared to females."

Seeing as Asian-Americans are about 5% of the population while women are roughly 50%, all things being equal you would expect to see far more women than Asian men in any given position.

But I agree with the sentiment that these events are fighting exclusion with more exclusion. I would even go so far as to say that some companies seem to have a policy of positive discrimination in favour of women when it comes to hiring. And that is just unfair.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#64

Post by demian »

mindcrime wrote: post #56
noonespecial wrote: post #55

My daughter has told me a few times that she might like to program like me but was worried that it was a "boy thing". I tell her that the computer can't tell you're a girl.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

I see it as a systemic problem. There isn't one root cause, but a lot of factors.

For example, the "hacker" archetype really rooted in people's minds is mostly a product of movies, TV and books. At the same time, those movies, TVs and books draw inspiration from each other, and new ones are made by people influenced by them. Its a mess of feedback loops.

In the same messy feedback-loopy kind of way, they afect how ALL software engineers are represented in media, how other characters react and interact with them, and all the conclusions people might get from them (most classic e.g.: programmer = awkward nerd, so If i'm neither awkward nor a "nerd" then I shouldn't be a programmer)

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#65

Post by ScottyE »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

But you can't force an interest in CS down people's throats. Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers and does nothing to promote CS to women who do not know about it.

Like you say, kids are very perceptive. The only way to truly eradicate the stereotype is to create a world in which the stereotype doesn't exist.

And that is done by giving all kids, regardless of gender or race, the __opportunity__ to learn about the value of computer science. The ones that like it will participate, those that don't, won't. And gender will be irrelevant.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#66

Post by demian »

davidroberts wrote: post #45

If you look at the real pioneers of computer science, people like Turing and Babbage, two women jump right off the page: Ada Byron and Grace Hopper. Women belong in CS, because it belongs to them. They were there at the start, just as much as the men. As a 55-year-old man, I'm pretty sure I've experienced discrimination because of my age. Situations where people couldn't see beyond the wrinkles and gray hair and see…

what if "woman in CS" programs can help to get woman with intellect and passion into CS?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#67

Post by tolmasky »

noonespecial wrote: post #60
mindcrime wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

Are you her father? (As opposed to mother? Can't tell from the comment). If so, does her mother not program (and maybe find it boring?) Could it be as simple as "programming is a boys thing because that's what daddy does"?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#68

Post by stcredzero »

mindcrime wrote: post #27
stcredzero wrote: post #12

Programming/Computer Science is a boy's club. This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. It will be integrated just like other boy's clubs have been: by a few talented and determined women who pave the way for others to follow. I agree with the author, in that the model to follow is closer to piloting than it is to sports. EDIT: To its credit CS is much further along than NASCAR.

This boy's club will perpetuate itself just like other boy's clubs historically. I'm not sure that's true, or - if it is true - that it's relevant. For one, because programming was very female centric in the past. There was already a time when most programmers were women, and we've heard very little - if any - argument presented to support the idea that women were systematically weeded out of the CS world. There also…

> I'm not sure that's true, or - if it is true - that it's relevant. For one, because programming was very female centric in the past.

I'm not sure that's relevant. It wouldn't be the first time a bunch of women were in a field, then that field got taken over by men. Society was very different in the 50's and 60's.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#69

Post by RougeFemme »

gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

I understand and even agree. The problem is that while you continue to not fight exclusion with exclusion, the original exclusion tends to strengthen and grow - not always deliberately, but the lack of intent doesn't change the net result. The original exclusion continues.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#70

Post by hack_edu »

Evbn wrote: post #34
colmvp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against." In numerous tech offices/companies I've visited in the Bay Area and New York, I've met more foreign born white male programmers than African American male and Hispanic American male programmers put together. And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS…

Start an Asian outreach effort. Get in touch with some Asian CxOs. (I worked for an Asian CxO once. So did everyone at Zappos.)

"Binders full of asians"
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