Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

overit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 86 posts

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#71

Post by lutusp »

nacker wrote: post #69
steveklabnik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even if most men aren't rapists, many enable rapists by, for instance, complaining when people say something as basic as "let's not have instances of rape at tech conferences."

> even if most men aren't rapists Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. Or potential rapists. Luckily, they are also obsolete! http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-...

> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists.

That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room":

http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Room-Marilyn-French/dp/03453536...

It's also true that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

> Luckily, they are also obsolete!

Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any more.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#72

Post by wilkie »

oh_sigh wrote: post #63
steveklabnik wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attrition specifically: > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and > costly loss of talent. Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce. http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec... Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/po…

I thank you for the sources. What I was specifically doubting was the linkage between attrition and sexism(which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text you quoted). I will take a look over the links you provided this evening, but if you have anything more specific to add on the linkage between attrition and sexism, I'd love to hear it.

https://gist.github.com/wilkie/5032530

You naturally cannot use a microscope and come to a fixed, proven conclusion. However, I would say that all of the causes of attrition are very likely based upon a prevailing systemic gender oppression (sexism.)

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#73

Post by coldtea »

steveklabnik wrote: post #34
coldtea wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties between them) from flirting? I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as "harassement". That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if people never approached other peopl…

It's pretty simple: if you're not sure, don't do it.

Really? That's quite a naive view.

Are people (men/women/gay) ever SURE about when to flirt with another person?

By this logic, half of the population would have never been born (which might have been a good thing, with respect to overpopulation and all, but that's a different argument).

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#74

Post by coldtea »

nexxy wrote: post #44
coldtea wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties between them) from flirting? I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as "harassement". That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if people never approached other peopl…

wow, you are clueless. Approaching someone and engaging in conversation with them out of potential interest in who they are as a person is nowhere near the same thing as making offhanded remarks on their physical appearance without so much as an introduction. get it together.

>wow, you are clueless.

By all means, enlighten me.

>Approaching someone and engaging in conversation with them out of potential interest in who they are as a person is nowhere near the same thing as making offhanded remarks on their physical appearance without so much as an introduction.

Sure, you need an introduction. I'm not talking about crash pickup lines or jerk behaviour. But if you like the other person, why would you say anything less in a tech conference that what you are OK to say in the park or the library or wherever?

Plus, this isn't 1950 Sunday school. People don't just like each other because of a "interest in who they are as a person". People can _also_ like each other on the physical level, and/or have one-night-stands and the like. And modern people don't find anything wrong with that.

>get it together.

May I suggest you avoid making offhanded remarks about me as a person such as the above?

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#75

Post by stcredzero »

lutusp wrote: post #71
nacker wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even if most men aren't rapists Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. Or potential rapists. Luckily, they are also obsolete! http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-...

> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room": http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Room-Marilyn-French/dp/03453536... It's also true that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > Luckily, they are also obsolete! Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any mor…

You're discounting network effects, there.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#76

Post by onemorepassword »

stevenameyer wrote: post #51

The number of comments on this thread stating sexism exists in all areas and seemly dismiss this as an issue that needs to be addressed in our industry is very surprising to me. Just because the problem is not specific to the tech industry doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to solve it. If women feel uncomfortable working or contributing to the industry because of their gender then we are missing out on possible con…

It's not that it shouldn't be addressed in our industry, but it shouldn't be addressed as "sexism in tech", because that is an entirely separate issue.

The kind of sexism that is described here occurs just as much in industries that are 50% women. It's not the cause of the under-representation of women in tech, and addressing it is unlikely to solve that issue.

On the one hand, the industry should make an additional effort to address the general social sexism on order to not further alienate women, but the suggestion that tech is more sexist than other areas is blatantly false, and leads to a automatic defensive response because it suggests a certain causality.

It is simply not very constructive to conflate the two issues, no matter how closely related they are. Sexism in general is too sensitive an issue for that, and not just for women.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#77

Post by steveklabnik »

coldtea wrote: post #73
steveklabnik wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty simple: if you're not sure, don't do it.

Really? That's quite a naive view. Are people (men/women/gay) ever SURE about when to flirt with another person? By this logic, half of the population would have never been born (which might have been a good thing, with respect to overpopulation and all, but that's a different argument).

What you're saying is, "I am willing to possibly sexually assault someone in order to get a date."

You're a bad person.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#78

Post by coldtea »

steveklabnik wrote: post #49
coldtea wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women don't feel safe in these environments Women don't feel safe in tech conferences? Like it's south central Los Angeles or something? I've attended several tech conferences, with women colleagues and friend, and I've not seen all this hoopla people constantly bring up on HN. Heck, those things don't even happen on Linux and OSS conferences, much less in business tech meetings. Groping a woman? WTF have you witne…

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

Not much pertaining to Europe (if anything), plus a lot of unrelated incidents among the list. I mean, how does this qualify:

"An offensive tweet was made against the PyLadies group at EuroPython 2012. Lynn Root (a keynote speaker and founder of PyLadies) blogged twice about the incident."

Really? One can find thousand of offensive tweets for anything, from your choice of programming editor, to Mac vs PC, to politics, to Twilight, to Coke Light vs Zero. And an "offensive tweet" somehow deserves to be in a list about "sexist incidents"? Other stuff is nearly as lame.

Judging from the above list, and compared to, e.g. the fashion or the journalism industry, the tech industry seems comparatively sexism free.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#79

Post by Hairy_Sandwich »

steveklabnik wrote: post #70
Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what I was saying is that the women should make it obvious that they don't tolerate this behaviour. So that even somebody who's a little slow socially will get the message. Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess.

Yes, who cares about the safety of the victim, let's prioritize the feelings of the attacker.

That's what I said "Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess."

I don't even know what you are trying to say....

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#80

Post by nacker »

lutusp wrote: post #71
nacker wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even if most men aren't rapists Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. Or potential rapists. Luckily, they are also obsolete! http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-...

> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room": http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Room-Marilyn-French/dp/03453536... It's also true that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > Luckily, they are also obsolete! Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any mor…

>> Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. > >That's Marilyn French's view, as famously quoted from "The Women's Room":

Well, technically:

"At one point in the book the character Val says "all men are rapists". This quote has often been incorrectly attributed to Marilyn French herself. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_French

There's plenty of crazy around the subject, though: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/l...

> Maybe. I personally will suspend judgment until I see women open their own businesses and banks and refuse to do business with men any more.

That will never happen, as the bubble will pop soon. http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.h...

Post reply on HN