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Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

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Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#61

Post by steveklabnik »

oh_sigh wrote: post #55
steveklabnik wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the statistics show an incredibly high attrition rate. No getting in heads required.

Can you link me to these statistics that you know about? And can you link me to statistics from other fields? And can you link me to statistics which talk about why the women left the field? What if women leave the field because they can't countenance working long hours with little social interaction like many men can? That could account for the high attrition rate while not being because of any sexism in the sector.

Attrition specifically:

  > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their
  > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and
  > costly loss of talent.  Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter
  > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce.
http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec...

Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2012-06-11-diversity-an...

One of my friends has a series of blog posts. Even if you don't care for the text, she makes extensive citations:

http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-08-16-the-elephant...

http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/posts/2011-09-08-delicious-da...

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#62

Post by mediacrisis »

oh_sigh wrote: post #57
mediacrisis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were some sort of world wide network of information where women could write about their experiences and share them with total strangers. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the occult for now.

Have you read Steven Pinkers "The Better Angels of Our Nature"? In it, he argues that even though violent crime is on the decline, and is at a historical low, the perception of violent crime is at a historical high, because we are bombarded with stories about the few violent crimes that happen across the globe. Could it be the same pattern at play with blogs on the internet?

It would be entirely fair to say that sexism is also on the decline, I don't dispute that. For example, my father can no longer sell me for 3 goats (without my consent, of course). But this doesn't make it a non-issue, just as violence is not a non-issue. Just because a program is throwing out fewer errors doesn't mean its fixed.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#63

Post by oh_sigh »

steveklabnik wrote: post #61
oh_sigh wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link me to these statistics that you know about? And can you link me to statistics from other fields? And can you link me to statistics which talk about why the women left the field? What if women leave the field because they can't countenance working long hours with little social interaction like many men can? That could account for the high attrition rate while not being because of any sexism in the sector.

Attrition specifically: > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and > costly loss of talent. Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce. http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec... Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/po…

I thank you for the sources. What I was specifically doubting was the linkage between attrition and sexism(which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text you quoted). I will take a look over the links you provided this evening, but if you have anything more specific to add on the linkage between attrition and sexism, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#65

Post by steveklabnik »

oh_sigh wrote: post #63
steveklabnik wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attrition specifically: > The NCWIT reports 56 percent of women in technology companies leave their > organizations mid-way through their careers, representing a significant and > costly loss of talent. Reducing the attrition rate by just one quarter > would add more than 200,000 staff to the IT workforce. http://blog.comptia.org/2012/03/01/attract-women-to-high-tec... Tons of links: http://www.rarlindseysmash.com/po…

I thank you for the sources. What I was specifically doubting was the linkage between attrition and sexism(which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text you quoted). I will take a look over the links you provided this evening, but if you have anything more specific to add on the linkage between attrition and sexism, I'd love to hear it.

It's more in the links. You're welcome.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#66

Post by jroseattle »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #28
jroseattle wrote: post #14

The characterization of this as an industry issue is a red herring. This is a societal issue; the fact we're in the tech industry is simply a commonality.

It's considerably worse - both more prevalent and less acknowledged - in the tech industry than elsewhere.

I would expect you have some data that substantiates that assertion?

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#67

Post by stcredzero »

steveklabnik wrote: post #46
stcredzero wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university. The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However,…

And even if most men aren't rapists, many enable rapists by, for instance, complaining when people say something as basic as "let's not have instances of rape at tech conferences."

A much more succinct way of saying it.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#68

Post by Hairy_Sandwich »

jasonshen wrote: post #37
Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #27

There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to them either). However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will always be horny people, a…

Your suggestion that "there will always be socially restarted people" perpetuates the idea that things can't improve. Violent crime and overt prejudice to minorities and LGBT folks have gone down over time because it became a big deal. What we just said "there will always be bigots" and then stopped caring, that progress never would have happened. Change is possible and we should strive to make it happen.

Well what I was saying is that the women should make it obvious that they don't tolerate this behaviour. So that even somebody who's a little slow socially will get the message. Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#69

Post by nacker »

steveklabnik wrote: post #46
stcredzero wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university. The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However,…

And even if most men aren't rapists, many enable rapists by, for instance, complaining when people say something as basic as "let's not have instances of rape at tech conferences."

> even if most men aren't rapists

Obviously most, if not all men are rapists. Or potential rapists. Luckily, they are also obsolete!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-...

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#70

Post by steveklabnik »

Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #68
jasonshen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suggestion that "there will always be socially restarted people" perpetuates the idea that things can't improve. Violent crime and overt prejudice to minorities and LGBT folks have gone down over time because it became a big deal. What we just said "there will always be bigots" and then stopped caring, that progress never would have happened. Change is possible and we should strive to make it happen.

Well what I was saying is that the women should make it obvious that they don't tolerate this behaviour. So that even somebody who's a little slow socially will get the message. Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess.

Yes, who cares about the safety of the victim, let's prioritize the feelings of the attacker.
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