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Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

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Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#41

Post by oh_sigh »

lisabarone wrote: post #18
papermashea wrote: post #3

I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized. Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#42

Post by npfmn »

chc wrote: post #31
npfmn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why it's degrading for a victim to have someone else (publicly or privately) tell their agressor to stop.

The assumption of woman as victim when there's no indication that she sees it that way is what's degrading. Can you imagine if anytime you were talking to a member of your preferred sex, somebody came running up and yelled to the person you were talking to, "Hey, back off, buddy"?

There's a difference between talking and awkward, unwanted, sexist advances. If you can't tell the difference, then you're right, you probably shouldn't tell anyone off. But just because the victim doesn't say something doesn't mean they don't want something to be said.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#43

Post by steveklabnik »

oh_sigh wrote: post #41
lisabarone wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

Actually, the statistics show an incredibly high attrition rate. No getting in heads required.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#44

Post by nexxy »

coldtea wrote: post #17
papermashea wrote: post #3

I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized. Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

> it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties between them) from flirting? I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as "harassement". That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if people never approached other peopl…

wow, you are clueless.

Approaching someone and engaging in conversation with them out of potential interest in who they are as a person is nowhere near the same thing as making offhanded remarks on their physical appearance without so much as an introduction.

get it together.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#45

Post by RyanMcGreal »

oh_sigh wrote: post #41
lisabarone wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

Please stop. Stop this. Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#46

Post by steveklabnik »

stcredzero wrote: post #38
coldtea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism. Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university. It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it t…

> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university. The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However,…

And even if most men aren't rapists, many enable rapists by, for instance, complaining when people say something as basic as "let's not have instances of rape at tech conferences."

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#47

Post by oh_sigh »

npfmn wrote: post #6
superflit wrote: post #2

I do think sexism exist, but I think the MAJOR problem is as...ole men. I am not a full gentleman but let's think: 1) I think some woman attractive. I will not touch her as first move or even approach or stand too near. 2) There is better ways to extend the conversation instead of inviting to my 'bedroom'. 3) No or other excuses means no, thanks and farewell. 4) conferences are professional places, no place for flirt…

Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand? Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop and silent bystanders to tell them so? Why is a professional conference ever even thought of as a venue for making advances? I don't understand why you think this is not sexism.

> Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand?

Because you can't control the actions of others, but you can control your response to the actions of others. As much as any activity can be labelled taboo, humans are dynamic creatures and have the ability to break taboo at any moment, without any kind of notice.

> Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop

Yes. But to suggest that is blue sky thinking. Isn't it the responsibility of criminals to stop criminal behavior? Why don't they?

> and silent bystanders to tell them so

Maybe. Bystanders don't have perfect insight into the victims mindset. What if a husband put his hand on his wifes knee? Should a noble bystander lay into the husband for his sexist behavior? Do you assume that every bystander is listening to every conversation within earshot, waiting for something to become inappropriate? Chances are, bystanders have their attention focused on other things, like the conference at large, or the people they are conversing with.

If a person makes it very vocally clear that they are being victimized, then yes, bystanders should do something. And thats the answer to your question as to "Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand?"

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#48

Post by chc »

npfmn wrote: post #42
chc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption of woman as victim when there's no indication that she sees it that way is what's degrading. Can you imagine if anytime you were talking to a member of your preferred sex, somebody came running up and yelled to the person you were talking to, "Hey, back off, buddy"?

There's a difference between talking and awkward, unwanted, sexist advances. If you can't tell the difference, then you're right, you probably shouldn't tell anyone off. But just because the victim doesn't say something doesn't mean they don't want something to be said.

Sure, if a guy walks up to a chick and sticks his hand down her pants, that's one thing, because he's clearly out of control. But the example given in the OP was something like "Would you like to have a drink?" I don't think I would be inclined to come charging to the rescue if I saw that. I don't like that women have to deal with unwelcome advances, but I wouldn't feel right rejecting him for her.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#49

Post by steveklabnik »

coldtea wrote: post #24
eightpersimmons wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of manners and as..ole men are enabled by a sexist environment. These are symptoms of an underlying problem. Women don't feel safe in these environments because of the behavior of a relatively small number of individuals, but these individuals are enabled by a system problem in which their behavior is rationalized and ignored as just s social faux pas.

> Women don't feel safe in these environments Women don't feel safe in tech conferences? Like it's south central Los Angeles or something? I've attended several tech conferences, with women colleagues and friend, and I've not seen all this hoopla people constantly bring up on HN. Heck, those things don't even happen on Linux and OSS conferences, much less in business tech meetings. Groping a woman? WTF have you witne…

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#50

Post by mediacrisis »

oh_sigh wrote: post #41
lisabarone wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

If only there were some sort of world wide network of information where women could write about their experiences and share them with total strangers. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the occult for now.
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