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Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

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Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#31

Post by chc »

npfmn wrote: post #23
chc wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop Well, yes, but if your plan to stop sexism is something along the lines of "Wait for jerks to suddenly become good people," you're doing a disservice to their victims. > and silent bystanders to tell them so I don't feel like it is my business to step in and speak for a woman who has not implicitly or explicitly asked me to do so. That…

I don't see why it's degrading for a victim to have someone else (publicly or privately) tell their agressor to stop.

The assumption of woman as victim when there's no indication that she sees it that way is what's degrading. Can you imagine if anytime you were talking to a member of your preferred sex, somebody came running up and yelled to the person you were talking to, "Hey, back off, buddy"?

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#32

Post by npfmn »

autarch wrote: post #9
superflit wrote: post #2

I do think sexism exist, but I think the MAJOR problem is as...ole men. I am not a full gentleman but let's think: 1) I think some woman attractive. I will not touch her as first move or even approach or stand too near. 2) There is better ways to extend the conversation instead of inviting to my 'bedroom'. 3) No or other excuses means no, thanks and farewell. 4) conferences are professional places, no place for flirt…

I agree with most of your points except for #4. There's nothing inherently wrong with flirting at a conference. Flirting is a very natural type of interaction for people, and asking people to not do it at all doesn't seem realistic. However, men should not assume that flirting means that a woman is inviting you to touch her or sleep with her. In fact, she may not even be flirting. Men often misinterpret simple friend…

If women say there is something wrong with flirting at a conference, then there is something wrong with it. It's a professional event.

Why is a professional event even seen as "an opportunity for a casual hook up"?

To say that flirting is "natural" is quite a claim; while it might be prevalent in our culture, that doesn't mean it's natural.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#34

Post by steveklabnik »

coldtea wrote: post #17
papermashea wrote: post #3

I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized. Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

> it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties between them) from flirting? I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as "harassement". That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if people never approached other peopl…

It's pretty simple: if you're not sure, don't do it.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#35

Post by oh_sigh »

Lechers exist in all fields, even in fields where it is agreed upon by everyone that sexism does not exist, or is at least at some level lower than general sexism in society as a whole.

Feel free to call them out, but don't impugn the insanely broad field of "tech" because of some creeps.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#36

Post by npfmn »

Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #27

There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to them either). However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will always be horny people, a…

"they should react angrily" That might be part of the solution, but isn't it important for us to make a proactive effort to do whatever we can to encourage a professional, non-sexist environment?

You say there will always be horny people, but isn't it our place to make this a taboo?

None of this may be unique to the tech sector, but aren't we a forward-looking industry that isn't afraid of changing the world?

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#37

Post by jasonshen »

Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #27

There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to them either). However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will always be horny people, a…

Your suggestion that "there will always be socially restarted people" perpetuates the idea that things can't improve. Violent crime and overt prejudice to minorities and LGBT folks have gone down over time because it became a big deal. What we just said "there will always be bigots" and then stopped caring, that progress never would have happened.

Change is possible and we should strive to make it happen.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#38

Post by stcredzero »

coldtea wrote: post #20
danso wrote: post #8

I'm disappointed that this post focuses on an incident of groping. Not because the incident is "not a big deal" or that it's isolated, but because it's the type of incident that nearly everyone can agree is beyond the pale and should never be tolerated by society. Even sexists. I think the more prevalent problem is the underlying sexism, the institutional bias, the reluctance to speak up, the fear of being judged "th…

> the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism. Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university. It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it t…

> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university.

The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However, someone who is a member of a "hyper-minority" is going to attract a far-disproportionate amount of attention from the most unsavory 0.5% of the group.

> It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it to some general trend about everyone.

I don't think that's a fair or constructive way to put the issue. Most men aren't rapists. However, a very small number are, and they can do a disproportionate amount of damage. This was even truer in days past, when society was more permissive about certain kinds of behaviors, and less scrupulous about avoiding unwanted approaches.

It's not a matter of spreading the guilt through the group. It is a matter of encouraging responsibility, however.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#39

Post by oh_sigh »

MichelleRobbins wrote: post #25
gosukiwi wrote: post #7

This post again?

When it stops being a problem, it will stop being topical.

Can you name an industry(at least as broad as "tech" field) which has no sexual harassment lawsuits, or exceptionally few?

You can tell stories like the one in the blog about any field. Tech is not special. If there is going to be change, it will have to come from society at large, and not by fiddling with the dials of a specific field.

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