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Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

nytimes.com

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Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#171

Post by kolinko »

lkey wrote: post #101
kolinko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current chatbots are better tutors than an average school teacher imho. Not saying that we should replace ones with the other ones, but I’d say from age 11-12 and up kids should be taught how to use AI well.

There is significant evidence against this, and very little for it beyond your 'honest opinion'. A recent study showed just 2 out of tens of thousands of children in China improved their performance after beginning to use AI assistance. People will take the shortcut in front of them, absent enforcement, and this is how it works in work and in school. Putting it onto any individual to 'use it well' is to misunderstand…

Link to research?

The papers I’ve seen didn’t really claim what their headlines claim.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#172

Post by hgoel »

esalman wrote: post #164
hgoel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping younger students away from computers is dumb, but we do need to go back to the basic computer literacy classes of the early/mid 2000s, e.g. typing, basics of desktop operating systems like the filesystem, using word, powerpoint etc. It's appalling how lacking high schoolers seem to be in these kinds of skills.

> Keeping younger students away from computers is dumb No. There's proven research that shows reading a book or writing with a pen or pencil is much more stimulating and beneficial compared to looking at a screen or tapping/typing on it.

But they also need to have computer skills if they're going to survive in this world... it's too late to teach them once they're old enough to have the safeguards removed.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#173

Post by haizhung »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #35
legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

I can’t imagine how many shortcuts I would have taken as a kid/teen or stressed uni student if AI were an option. I can see even a well-meaning student stuck in this aspirational cycle of “I’ll do it myself next time, but right now I just want to catch up.”

Hell im taking shortcuts now as a fully grown adult; just because it is so _so easy_, and I absolutely see my skills atrophy.

It’s terrible.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#174

Post by pvaldes »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #149
tw04 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good? The amount of just flat out wrong information the average LLM spits out makes it unfit for education IMO. I can’t imagine asking teachers to have to personally vet every single lesson plan to ensure an AI wasn’t hallucinating when producing the content.

I agree, but there's also teachers who give out wrong information too. Often it's when the teacher doesn't have a deep understanding of the topic and are just repeating what they've heard (or misheard) and they will typically compound the issue by not allowing curious questioning. There's also the issue that modern teachers are more like exam coaches rather than trying to actually teach kids.

Teachers earned their titles, they had to prove repeatedly that they are fit for a job that includes proving that you can learn things, that you have a logical thinking, that you are a decent enough person and that you have developped the social skills to lead a bunch of volcanic young people, taking the best paths to their grow and benefit.

AI is just the weird guy that sneaked its way in, without any reference. That is know to lie often in a very convincing way, specially when it does not have an answer, and that can be persuaded to include a lot of weird random ideas or fake facts in their classes.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#175

Post by protimewaster »

anonymars wrote: post #165
protimewaster wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that can be done without having them sit in front of a computer or even really using a computer, though. Lots of kids have stories about wandering over to a college campus when they were in middle school, wandering into a room with the keypunch machines, and learning about computers that way. Very few of those kids directly used a computer, but they learned it anyway.

How prevalent do you think are children that live within wandering distance of a college that lets random children enter and use their computers?

Colleges with key punches? Probably pretty close to zero.

My point was more that, I think it's incorrect to assert that it's necessary for kids to directly use a computer in order to effectively learn about them. We have tons of concrete evidence of kids learning to be excellent at programming and understanding computers without directly using one. It happened with the kids I described.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#176

Post by esalman »

hgoel wrote: post #172
esalman wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keeping younger students away from computers is dumb No. There's proven research that shows reading a book or writing with a pen or pencil is much more stimulating and beneficial compared to looking at a screen or tapping/typing on it.

But they also need to have computer skills if they're going to survive in this world... it's too late to teach them once they're old enough to have the safeguards removed.

If you let them develop critical thinking skills, it'll actually be easier to reach them.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#177

Post by ytoawwhra92 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #169
ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point Yeah, a bad reason. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/are-calculators-affec... > In a 1997 review of the extent to which calculators were being used in schools, numerous studies were examined that indicated the use of calculators at primary levels had no detrimental effects on students' arithmetic abilities. > Unfortunately, the re…

And you think a 9YO has the discipline to understand when a calculator is used for "checking work" compared to using it to answer their questions and get positive feedback? That's the part this study seems to handwave. We don't need a full calculator ban, but very controlled usage is necessary.

The point of the study is that they should be using calculators to answer their questions rather than spending an inordinate amount of time on manual calculations that don't further their education and cause them to lose interest in the subject.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#178

Post by johnnyanmac »

ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #177
johnnyanmac wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think a 9YO has the discipline to understand when a calculator is used for "checking work" compared to using it to answer their questions and get positive feedback? That's the part this study seems to handwave. We don't need a full calculator ban, but very controlled usage is necessary.

The point of the study is that they should be using calculators to answer their questions rather than spending an inordinate amount of time on manual calculations that don't further their education and cause them to lose interest in the subject.

>don't further their education and cause them to lose interest in the subject.

Yes, that's my issue. The study is focused on grades and I'm more concerned about deeper logical thinking. You don't get the latter without some friction, and that let's you build up for skills needed in high school and beyond.

The mechanical ability of typing 1+1 into a calculator isn't my concern. It's the ability to know why you're typing 1+1 in as an intermediate step in solving real problems.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#179

Post by gamblor956 »

rayiner wrote: post #122

Mamdani should investigate why NYC spends almost twice as much per student as the city of Zurich, Switzerland (which itself spends an enormous amount on education) but lags behind the U.S. average in reading and math test scores: https://www.chalkbeat.org/newyork/2025/01/29/naep-scores-sho...

NYC has approximately several million more students than the city of Zurich.

And several million more immigrants than the entire country of Switzerland.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#180

Post by fejiowfjo »

haizhung wrote: post #173
hombre_fatal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine how many shortcuts I would have taken as a kid/teen or stressed uni student if AI were an option. I can see even a well-meaning student stuck in this aspirational cycle of “I’ll do it myself next time, but right now I just want to catch up.”

Hell im taking shortcuts now as a fully grown adult; just because it is so _so easy_, and I absolutely see my skills atrophy. It’s terrible.

The wrong assumption is that you had any skills before that. But what you (and nearly all of us did) was using other sources to generate work. You looked up stuff online, asked a colleague who did this before and so on. Then simply fitted you heard into what you were doing. Now the source is one place and you are romanticizing former you.
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